Word play huh? I stated a fact. Most in the USA around the poverty
level do indeed have a home, car, tv, A/C and more. Deal with it.
You certainly are arguing that issue exactly. You say employees should
get the same return on their 'investment' as the owners. Sorry, but
employees are not taking anywheres near the risks that the employees
are. Higher risk, higher returns. Plain and simple except for the
The owner probably lost everything they owned if the company was in it's
early stages. The owner almost always has far more of a risk than any
A job and the benefits it returns, paycheck, insurance, vacations,
profit sharing, retirement plan, 401K, SS, WMC, etc. All at the owners
Why? Because owners of new businesses very likely do put a huge amount
of their own assets to start it and sustain it until it sustains itself.
They take enormous risks despite your claims they don't.
Figures you can't answer a simple question. You complain all workers
should make a living wage. How much should an unskilled entry job such
as a door greeter make...ok, specifically, where you live. How much
should a walmart door greeter make where you live? $10? $20? $30/hr?
What Tom...name it....or just be vague and not answer and complain
about business owners instead.
Because its a classic example of an unskilled job that you feel should
earn a living wage yet refuse to state just how much they should make.
You keep saying livable wage but refuse to state how much such a worker
should make. Tell me in a particular city, I don't care....NAME IT TOM!
You can't but you can whine really good!
So lets make minimum wage $20/hr. Would that reduce poverty one bit?
Hell no Tom but you'll never comprehend why it would not change a thing.
You did when you told me I was wrong for getting back more from my
company than my original investment. You told me that was greed.
Sucks to be you then Tom? I'm earning well above 8% on my stock
investments. If you're not then you've got serious financial investment
problems you need to deal with rather than whine here!
There actually is a difference between "around the poverty level" and "below
the poverty level". But even there, I can say that you are completely full
of shit. There is also a major wordplay on home. Home can be anything from
a Mc Mansion to a run down shack that doesn't even have running water.
Sorry Miles, but while many may have some of the things that you listed in
the broadest sence of the words, most DO NOT have all of them.
Sorry Miles, but you are completely full of shit. Once the business returns
it's initial investment, the owner is at no more risk than any other
employee if it fails.
Here we go with that maybe / probably / almost bullshit again. To follow
your rules Miles, it either is or it isn't. How about the ones that work
for public companies? What risk do their CEO's have for the money they
make? I know that you like to fall back to the starting small business
owner to back up your bullshit but that is a small number of people. Even
you don't fit there anymore as your company is established and if it were to
fold tomorrow, you would be no worse off than any of your employees.
Actually, you would be better off with your much higher salary and double
digit (LOL) returns on your investments that you paid yourself more than
enough money to make.
LOL, yea, sure. First of all, any of these expenses are at the business
expense, not the owners and not all companies are individually owned.
Second, with the amount of uninsured worker here in the US, I would hardly
use that a benefit for most and many of the ones that do have insurance are
fairly underinsured. 401K sounds good but in reality, unless you are
willing to pay your workers enough where they can afford to contribute to
them, they mean nothing. As for SS, that is a requirement by the gubberment
and if not, probably wouldn't be done. Retirement plans usually means a
pension of some type and where you have takes care of yourself very well
there, do you offer the same for your employees?
Once again Miles, you don't answer the question and resort to your typical
spin so I'll ask again, WHY WOULD THEY JUST WALK AWAY????
Nobody could answer that general of a question Miles and you know that.
Not all but for a full time job hiring adults, yes.
Around the area where I live, probably between $12 to $15 an hour could get
a single person by without worring if they will be able to eat and stay
Well, here I would say it would take between $12 to $15 and hour and that
would be far from luxury living but would put food on the table in a nice
although small 1 bdrm apartment. The point is Miles, if the job isn't worth
making a living, then why does it exist?
Sure I do Miles, because greedy pricks like yourself will just jack the
prices on everything rather than giving up a penny of your own income.
Damn Miles, now you are spinning yourself.
Sure you do.
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
Now I understand why your own business endevors haven't led to anything
major. Most business owners continue to roll their own money back into
the company again and again. If the company begins to struggle due to
market issues or whatever the owner most certainly will scrape anything
they have to build it back up and keep it running. When a company fails
the owner usually fails with it whether you think so or not.
Bull. No two situations are exactly the same. You have stated that
once a business returns the original investment then theres no more risk
to the owner than the employee. You state it as if thats all cases.
It's not even most cases except in your version devoid of reality.
What?? In a public company or any other the CEO's don't necessarily own
the company. They are an employee who may have some ownership. If a
company fails the major owner(s) will most likely fail with it. The
larger the corporation the more diversified the ownership is in most cases.
WTF are you rambling about? If my company folded tomorrow I certainly
would lose most of what I own with it. If it starts sinking I most
certainly will pour whatever funds I have tied to my own personal
property if I felt it would allow it to survive. I would also use my
own private funds to make last payrolls etc. I would be the last one
paid. Employees would be first. I realize in your world of hate you
can't comprehend that concept.
Bull. Any money left in the business is the owners. Theres two places
for it. The owners pocket or retained earnings put back into the
company. All expenses are that of the owners for every penny they spend
is that much less they have for themselves or to put into the company.
So a totally unskilled job should pay $12-$15 an hour? That would also
push up wages of other jobs above that. Which in turn will shove prices
up. The net result is that the poverty level would remain largely
unchanged. I realize you disagree but salaries above market value would
do nothing more than raise the market value of goods to match.
Because there are people who need a place to start and work their way
up. Same reason part time jobs exist.
lol, always blame employers for all of your problems. Ah yes, the
perfect world where the government sets wages and prices of goods. Go
move to a country where that very thing exists and then tell me how
great it is.
You have no idea how any of my businesses have done Miles but I see you are
back to the half-truths again. Unless you are an idiot, you should have
incorporated by now, even if it is just an LLC. The minute that you do
that, the corp becomes its own identity and the money it makes belongs to
the business, not you. Sure, you may own it and control where the money
goes but the money is part of the business so in reality, you are investing
the businesses money back into it, not yours. As for investing your own
money back into the business if it gets into trouble, that's a whole
different issue. If the business gets into trouble, that's most likely your
fault as you are the one running it and if you dump your own money back into
it without knowing what went wrong and being sure that you can correct the
problem then you are an idiot and deserve to lose it all. I had one
business fail and had a few friends lose a business or two as well and we
are all just fine Miles. The trick is to know when the ship is sinking and
if you cannot save it (which sometimes happens), to get out gracefully and
And the same goes for salaries as well Miles but then you just don't want to
hear it and think that I can simply rattle off a cure all salary.
Sorry Miles but as usual, you are wrong. Do you really own anything???
Thanks for repeating what I already said and with that, please justify the
huge salaries that they make since they are truly just employees and at no
more risk than any other.
Where do you come up with this crap? Sure, that may be the case for a tiny
"mom and pop" but they tend not to be all that rich either. I am talking
about larger businesses that employ more than 10 people.
Then you are either an idiot or does your company own most of your assets so
that you can minimise your tax liability?
Then you would be re-investing in your company and so would any employee
that didn't jump ship when and if they get the chance because with the
current job market, they would also be risking their home and livelihoods
should they become unemployed. But what would you do if you knew early on
that you couldn't save it? I doubt that you would let it drain you and if
you had half a brain, you would take a loan on the companies assets to try
and save it.
Perhaps because that is an act of desperation and stupidity.
LOL, not really. If it is a corp of any type, the money is the businesses
under control of its officers. The owner/officer takes a salary just like
any other employee along with bonuses and whatever other crap they choose to
use to get the most money with the least tax impact. I know that you try
and justify your greed by saying that every dime the company makes is all
yours and every penny that you don't take is a re-investment in the company
but quite frankly, that is a load of crap.
Unskilled doesn't make it easy Miles or unnecessary. That is just an excuse
people like you use to justify screwing others.
As it should.
Why Miles? Because the rich execs don't want to give up a penny?
Only with your short sighted right wing greedy viewpoint. If more people
have money to spend, they will spend it. That means a bigger market and
more money for everyone but that goes against everything that you believe.
With people like you, you are probably right.
Bullshit and just more lame justifications. Why should people have to work
up to just being able to survive?
I already do as it has happened here and with the way things are going,
probably will again.
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
You're talking only about ones legal liability if a company fails.
Where your logic becomes absurd is what happens when the company is cash
strapped. The owner has a few choices. Fold up shop, or use their own
funds to build it back up or sell. Most will put their own funds into
it just as they did when they first started the business.
WTF are you rambling about? A company could need the use of more funds
than it has available for a variety of reasons. Who knows. It could be
doing quite well or going slow due to the economy or whatever. If
changes are in order for whatever reason then cash is needed. The owner
may wish to make greater changes than the company has in retained
I have no idea nor do I necessarily feel their salaries are justified.
I agree with you that in some cases they seem absurd. Ask the owners
why they pay them so much, not me. However, you seem to base your
entire belief on business economics on what a very few select large
corporate CEO's earn which are only gross examples and not representative.
More than 10 huh? My company has about 125 employees. Most of your
rhetoric seems to apply to a very few huge conglomerate corporations
that make the mainstream news rounds.
Oh geez. You're clueless TBone. You fail to realize that most owners
will in fact do what it takes to keep their business (their dream, their
life) afloat. You feel owners just routinely close up shop when the
going gets rough. Some might, most do not. They believe in their
company as it's their lifes work and more than just $'s. A concept your
hatred seems to fail at.
Huh? If I dump a few $100,000 into my company to re-invest and the
employees continue working the risk is identical? If it fails I'm out a
few 100 grand. The employee won't risk anywheres near that much.
Besides, the owners work far more hours than the typical 40 hour week.
Try nights, weekends, holidays. Whatever it takes.
Paying employees before myself is an act of desperation and stupidity?
If thats the liberal compassionate way of viewing such acts then I'm
glad I'm not one!
Prices will go up from the mom & pop shops all the way up to the huge
corporations. Raise costs and everything beneath will go up. In your
dream world I guess you wish to control both wages and cost of goods.
Nope. It's called economics.
You didn't do so good in basic economics class did you? Call it greed
or whatever you want. It doesn't change what happens when consumers
have more money. It balances out all the same in the long run. You
can't regulate salaries and expect greater buying power.
Sigh. Ya, people shouldn't have to learn a skill and work their way up.
Sorry but the USA doesn't regulate wages other than minimum wage and a
few issues such as OT etc. And it only regulates a select few markets.
Here we go again with you putting your feelings as what most will do.
Even in your above example, unless the company is very small like a mom and
pop, if the owner can afford to dump this much money into the company and
the company itself cannot afford to do it, then the owner is being greedy
and paying themself way to much. A well run company should have that cash
on hand or be able to get it if needed.
That is simply not true Miles but even there, these few huge companies tend
to be the ones that employ the masses.
How is that Miles, you also talk about investing 100's of thousands into
your company and yet, your staring wage is below what someone would need to
And as said before Miles, as with you and many like you, it is a matter of
control which is the same reason that you and many like you, make the
starting wage way below what most need to even survive. You like to
maintain that control over them. As for closing up shop, if the company
gets big enough, most owners short of the greedy ones could afford to return
enough money back to the company to supply it with enough funds to save it
and it would be up to the ones controlling it to come up with a way to use
the companies assets to generate the required funds.
Here is the big question Miles, when you say that you dump a few hundred
grand back into the company, are you talking company funds or money out of
your personal bank account?
Paying your employees before yourself is a good thing Miles. Running the
company down to the level that it cannot afford payroll is what's stupid and
Once again Miles, you see only what you want to see. Wages are not directly
linked to the cost of goods. If an employee is making X dollars a month but
is only working at 50% capability is given a 20% increase in wages and his
output is increased to 75% capability, you have actually decreased the
worker contributed cost of goods. If you have more customers, unless your
workers are already working at 100%, they can work harder for that increase
due to increased denmand for your products which as stated above, can
actually reduce your labor costs per piece.
Maybe in your right wing world.
Once again, you more than prove that you really don't know WTF you are
Work their way up to what Miles, just getting by??? Sorry Miles, but that
is just greed and ignorance. People that show up and work hard should start
out making enough to get by and work their way up to having the nicer things
Like I said many times Miles, crack open a history book and get back to me.
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
Just as you feel most business owners are greedy bastards who think only
for themselves. Course you somehow relate that only to republicans that
are the greedy bastards!
Yes Tom, it is very true. The absurdly paid CEO's you see in the news
are extreme examples glorified by people like you. They are not in the
majority. Not even close.
My company pays well above the going wage. Also well above benefits
including vacation, insurance, profit sharing, matched 401K
contributions and more. If all corporations paid their lowest skilled
workers $15-$20/hr it would do nothing to raise their standard of
living. Ya, I know, thats because greedy bastards would raise the costs
of goods which in turn raise costs not only for consumers but for
businesses as well. So go move to a country with regulated wages and
prices of goods and tell me how great it is.
lol, geez your hatred of all business owners is showing in extreme ways!
Now start talking about the controlling liberals with their oppressive
social programs. Ya, they just want to help and has nothing to do with
power right? Go figure.
Both. If the company needs more funds than it has available either
liquid or not then it borrows. If it borrows more than it has in
equitable assets then somethings gotta give. Usually the owner takes
the risk to back the loans. Large corporations are not what we're
talking about here Tom. Those are extreme examples where the company
isnt owned by a single owner, nor even a few owners. In those few cases
the risks are split up.
Geez Tom, you're clueless! Most businesses have good years and bad.
Take large construction companies. They work on about a 4-8% profit
margin on a multi-million $ job. They build by turning over the profits
from one job to fund another with a bank backing it up. One slow growth
year for an area will certainly cause such a scenario. Any funds the
company has are tied up with projects that are in progress. Bad
business practice? To you perhaps.
Sorry Tom but a salary wage is earned by being productive. A worker
thats says they know they suck, do lousy work, but ask for more pay and
THEN they'll do better is worthless. The same goes for a company that
fails to recognize quality workers and pay them well. Those companies
often loose their good employees to the competition.
\> Once again, you more than prove that you really don't know WTF you are
OK Tom, you win. Tell me what country regulates wages where it has
raised the standard of living through increased buying power.
Huh? Go ahead Tom. Explain how the USA regulates wages other than what
I stated and how it has increase the buying power and lowered poverty.
I can sure tell that you don't live in California, Nate... lol
We refinanced our old, run down house in CA for $320k to build this one.. we
were in what's a "starter" area in Fresno... anywhere near a big city and it
would of been twice that cost..
Most of them can't or don't want to... The builders and business folks could if
they wanted to, but to the average worker it would be like an almost rich
Some of the houses in town are little more than shacks (with dish and ac) and
some are far nicer than ours..
As I've told my friends here for 2 years, I haven't met a local yet that I
didn't like.. and that I sure can't say that for the gringos here..
In general, I think the locals are a mixture of curious
and grateful of the income.. maybe a bit envious, but I don't pick up on that
The "trickle-down" theory works here.. We're building houses, so the builders
are busy and hiring, the trades are all doing well, the trucking industry is
booming and pushing for better roads, etc..
Most of the local stores and restaurants have been doing well enough to remodel
and direct marketing for the gringo customer... A lot of folks are doing very
well with us here and seem to enjoy absorbing us (and our bucks) into the
montana bringing the millions of dollars that they got for selling their homes
in california that the property values here are
class to afford a decent home. this (amongst other political reasons) is why
the natives tend to dislike californians (im not saying it
I saw a lot more of that in urban areas of CA than I do here... Folks would sell
their homes in the San Francisco area for a few million and come buy homes in
our area for cash, usually at over market prices..
I think it's sort of different here because we're driving the gringo home prices
up very fast but not really effecting the price of the local home, except that
the demand on material has really made those costs go up...
Then again, I'd guess than the average wage in the area has more than triples
in the last 5 years..
Thanks, we love it here...
I've got a freaking cold.. bout the 3rd one this winter, and still sitting in
the sun looking at the water..
One downside of being in a place like this is that between folks going to visit
family and family visiting here, we always seem to have some kind of bug going
Must be all the huggin' and hand shakin' they do here..lol
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