one for Martyn...

On or around Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:52:59 +0100, Mother enlightened us thusly:

'ere, this one looks original:

The Llama was also a victim of politics, and bad timing. For whatever reason LR entered it in the trials with the V8 just when the Army went "all diesel". The Llama was either pulled, or was pushed, from the tirals process before they were completed - why has never been answered. It could have been because it was petrol (but then sticking a 200Tdi would not have been a major problem), or there could have been a fundametal problem (the plastic cab doesn't sound all the good an idea to me) or [insert reason of choice here].

Personaly, I think the goal-posts for the trial were moved to suit some political motive. Why else was the RB-44 procured - a vehicle that ought to have excellent s/h value on the basis that most never actually managed to turn a wheel and are/were therfore definately low-milage.

Anyone who thinks that MOD procurement is not almost soley motivated by political considerations only has to look at the RB-44 fiasco to see it. And the assault rifle, the Black Hawk helicopters (still grounded last I heard), etc, etc

Richard

ISTR the Apache Longhorn being an odd one too, built in Britain for many times the cost that they could have been bought from the US. I think that the weapons system is heavily modified though, and some argument could be put forward that the money is better spent in this country (inward investment) than totally given to the Americans. I think the figures were quite different though, something like £6 million each to buy from the US, £40 million each to build here.

Arms sales are highly political for sure, as is much international government trade. Even with businesses, export tariffs and restrictions are manipulated for political reasons but this isn't always a bad thing.

You must never forget that money spent on imports is exported money while money spent at home stays at home and goes round and round from supplier to sub-supplier until it finally all becomes either profits or wages and that part that doesn't actually go to the government in direct or indirect taxation keeps people off support. Nothing actually costs anything when you come right down to it, you only pay people.

That's why building 'infrastructure', politician talk for roads, bridges, buildings, railways, is always high on the agenda of any political party of any persuasion. That barely costs the Government anything. A good home grown weapons program is far better than paying dole as the money filters down through far more people with the workers, the guy that redoes the workers bathroom, the restaurant staff that sells the bathroom man a fancy meal etc...

Governments have to care about these things as they have so many zeros on the end of their numbers. If you net export money you glut the outside world and they want lots more next time.

nigelH

I didn't, I spent two lines saying that, rather less than you did I'll admit ;-)

There were about 12 different proposals put forward for the 101 - the MoD however, at a meeting in July 1986, told Land Rover not to further waste their time as they were not interested (I have the original Memo confirming this decision).

I couldn't agree more - I'm a great believer in the £1 Battleship theory.

Richard

Any idea why they weren't?

How do you export money ? Even if you buy abroad, in dollars, dollars have to be bought and GBP have to come home by some circuitous route. If governments allow money to inflate THEN they "export money"

Steve

I see that a different way. You go on holiday to Spain and spend, for arguments sake, £1000.00 while there. If non of the goods or services you buy on that holiday are made in the UK (i.e. have no UK content) then UK Plc has lost £1000.00 - forever. If a nice Spaniard them comes to the UK and also spends £1000.00 then that's great (ignoring taxes!), and if he spends £1001.00 that's even better - unless, of course, he buys a load of parts for his Seat and half a ton of imported Piella, which is not good, as fair %age of his £1000.00 ends up back in Spain, so UK Plc has dipped out as we don't make Seat spares or piella (fortunately in the latter case).

Maggies great idea that we could just become a nation of shop keepers and service providers only works if there is sufficeint manufacturing, locally owned so the proft stays in UK Plc's bank account, to top up money going abroad. Without it we export our wealth and eventually the circle breaks and UK Plc goes bust.

I am a doom-and-gloom merchant I know, but I think the circle has already broken and the Government knows it, hence the off-loading of Government services to the provate sector (aka out-sourcing) so they have someone else to blame when the bills can't be paid. We are going to end up as part of the United States of Europe not because we want to, but because we will have no choice if we want EU subsidies.

Richard

No, as I see it, because ultimately the only place to get that 1000 quid back is from the UK. You bought 1500 Euro with your 1000 quid. In other words some bank or whatever somewhere has 1000 quid. Where can they spend that 1000 quid ?

We only export our wealth if the government loses the value of our money by printing it, or by the cumulative value of our trade balance.

Steve

But when you change your £1000 for n Euros, ignoring any commission, UK Plc's Bank account value doesn't decrease or increase - you've only swaped some bits of paper for other bits of paper, you havn't spent any money. It's exactly the same as going into a shop and swapping a £10 note for 10 £1 coins - no one gains or loses (except of course you now have all their lead £1 coins).

Not the only way, but as Dennis Healy proved that is also an effective method of stuffing the economy ;-)

Richard

Isn't that MY point ?

Steve

That's not how I read it. I understood it that you were saying the UK Plc gained £1000.00 when you changed your money. If it were your point, the you must agree that when you then spend you Euros in Spain and come back with nothing, having spent the Euros on drinak and food, that UK Plc now has a deficit of £1000.00, so the money has been exported.

Richard

Nothing on record, plenty of anecdotal chatter.

Do you mind, no advanced economics and math at this time of night, please

Alex