What nonsense...

This wasnt a main dealer

OK, but it's still available for £150 nowadays.

My vans a citroen although the citroen , pug and ducato are all the same , its interesting though

I will give them a call tomorrow

"steve robinson" gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Usenet - a write-only medium...

Chris Bartram gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

GTis, yes. But that's not really the kind of "elk-test", or even the TiT going over-easy at speed in a straight line, that I was thinking of...

Indeed. OK, ours is a (much) lower powered one, but it just handles.

Nice, woolly, predictable, safe, dull-dull-dull.

Personally, I'd prefer drivers learnt how to drive instead of letting the electronic bottom-wipers do it for them...

"might"?

Stop it- it's too early in the day for such mirth!

Chris

You persistently fail to acknowledge that there *will* be occasions when you have to make violent changes of direction due to the behaviour of other motorists. It matters not a toss how good a driver *you* are - if you are forced into a difficult-to-control manoeuvre by the actions of another motorist. This is where electronic 'bottom wipers' may just save your life (and the lives of any passengers you may have).

"Ret." gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

No, I don't.

Only if you don't know how to react yourself, and only within the boundaries of the vehicle's capabilities.

I'd suggest that a non-ESP car on good tyres with a competent driver is way more capable than an ESP one on Chinese teflon crap with a mediocre driver.

Sigh... Your arrogance knows no bounds does it? You'll come to grief one day - and then you may regret driving an ancient shed with abysmally poor driver/passenger protection...

"Ret." gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

There's a much higher chance of my injuring myself in so many other ways that it's really not worth worrying about. I'd far rather enjoy my driving the vast majority of the time than worry about something that'll almost certainly never happen.

But in the meantime, let's just hope your electronic bottom-wipers don't have a sulk, eh? Because - clearly - you'd refuse to use the car with that little light on.

Makes you wonder how you managed to survive driving cars without them for so many years, eh? A cynic might suggest there's nowt like the zeal of those trying to justify their own recent hideously expensive purchases...

In message , Ret. writes

If you have to make "violent changes of direction" you aren't doing it right, I haven't had to in 55 years. Firm braking, yes.

The most important factor in road safety is the nut behind the steering wheel, not the badge on the bonnet. ;-)

Well, there was the time someone decided to stop at a junction, look towards me, then pull out directly in front of me.

That required a fairly violent change of direction, and a new pair of trousers.

That happens a lot round here. The last time, the woman stalled halfway across the lane... very close.

David

And yet, despite the fact that I have never had a 'self inflicted' road accident in more years than I can remember - you castigate me for using mid-price tyres...

Hideously expensive? Well - I suppose to people who only buy old sheds, it probably seems that way - but £15k is hardly 'hideously expensive' by today's standards - and when it buys a nearly-new car that What Car? describes as the best small family car in the world, and NCAP described as the safest car 2009, I think it's money well spent. What's the point in earning good money and leaving it stuck in the bank? Might as well enjoy it while I'm still fit enough to do so.

With regards to 'surviving' driving cars without modern aids. I managed to survive driving cars without seat belts and without air-bags for many years - but only an idiot would suggest that they are a waste of time and unnecessary fripperies.

Remember 'Dangerous at any speed'? The fact is that over the years passenger cars have become increasingly safe for drivers, for passengers and for pedestrians. Even cars that, a few years ago would have been regarded as ultra-safe (Volvos?) can now be demonstrated to be very *unsafe* compared to modern cars.

That YouTube clip of an offset head-on between a sturdy old Volvo and a modern 'lightweight' Berlingo showed that the driver in the Berlingo would be far better protected from injury than the Volvo driver.

No matter how good a driver you think you are (and I wonder just what 'advanced driver training' you have had since passing your test), you simply cannot account for the actions of other drivers. To suggest that your supposed superior driving skills will always be able to get you out of scrapes is ludicrous nonsense. If I was going to have a head-on with an overtaking nutter - I know which car I would choose between my Golf and your old Saab...

So if a car pulls out of a side road into your path you would simply brake, and make no attempt to steer around it? Even if it became clear that you have insufficient road space to stop before hitting the car that has pulled out? You would just brake firmly - and then smash into the side of it?

Exactly. To suggest that you can avoid situations such as that merely with 'firm braking' is a nonsense.