LPG conversion - chicken and egg runaround

I'm seriously considering getting my car converted to LPG (Nissan Maxima QX

3.0 SE+ Auto) but as it's going to cost the best part of two grand, I want to be sure of getting a decent system.

The problem is that there are at least a dozen manufacturers, with Prins, OMVL, Romano, Tartarini and BRC being just a few of them. The LPGA have an approved installer scheme (which I suppose is like a CORGI equivalent) but I'm finding that not all installers fit all systems.

Some approved installers may have a range of 3 or 4 systems, while others specialize and only fit one type. I'm going round in circles trying to find a website or some reference that will list good and bad points of each, or have some sort of rating or recommendation - after all, someone has to be the best and someone has to be the worst.

The best I've come up with so far is a website that said they couldn't recommend any particular one but that the Scottish government had offered some sort of grant to motorists to have the conversion done, and the ones that were approved by them as eligable for the grant were AG, BRC, Landi, Necam, OMVL, Prins, Romano and Tartarini.

Can anyone add anything to that or point me to some more useful information?

TIA, John

Reply to
John
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Nothing solid, but I've heard you can't go wrong with OMVL among others.

Also another member on here fitted his own kit, he can tell you what=20 that was. It was a proper seperate injector kit, not a basic gas ring=20 type too.

I've seen certified installs for =A31200 so you may have been charged over= =20 the odds.

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Reply to
Elder

Nothing solid, but I've heard you can't go wrong with OMVL among others.

Also another member on here fitted his own kit, he can tell you what that was. It was a proper seperate injector kit, not a basic gas ring type too.

I've seen certified installs for £1200 so you may have been charged over the odds.

Reply to
Bob Sherunckle

Thanks Elder. Not seen any as low as £1200 but when you say "certified installs", do you mean LPGA certified (sort of CORGI equivalent I suppose) or manufacturer certified? For instance, I saw one quoting about £1300 and saying he was E-gas certified (manufacturer) but no mention of LPGA certification.

From a safety and piece-of-mind point of view, I'm sticking to LGPA certified.

Reply to
John

Bob, your reply was below a sig-seperator and so has been cut out by me software but, what's your impression of your system - not that I'll be fitting it meself though :o)

John

Reply to
John

Have a search on Ebay, people list installed prices as "Buy Nows".

Will give you an idea of whether they are suitably qualified.

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Reply to
Elder

It's still a very fluid market, the best kit changes every 6 months.

Make sure you get one that can deliver enough gas for max power and doesn't switch back to petrol due to being under spec for the application. Max power is just where the engine is going be drinking fuel so you want it to run on gas. Few if any systems that do this give an indication that they have switched to petrol while in gas mode. The installer often fails to tell the customer that it will do this until they go back, "Even though I switch it straight to gas it seems to be using petrol".

Current best systems allow the system to be programmed to give the petrol injectors a pulse every now and then. This allows them to be used with FSi/GDi systems and avoids the need for expensive flashlube system for softer valve seats that need the lubricant in liquid petrol.

The LPGA are so clever they consider propane vapour alone, without the presence of oxygen, to be explosively ignitable by static electricity on the basis that it's a "dry" non-conductive gas.

Reply to
Peter Hill

How much fuel are you using?

£2K is still, even at current prices, quite a lot of fuel. And a Maxima QX is going to be getting on a bit - unless it's exceptionally low mileage and going to stay that way, there's probably a fair chance that something expensive is going to let go. A rough calculation gives 9,400 miles of petrol paid for by that conversion, and that's not "pays for itself in 9,400 miles" - you'd still need to pay for the LPG, so you're looking at doubling that.

It does sound like you've thought it through and have probably already ocnsidered that, but I really don't get the motivation behind converting old, thirsty cars to LPG. Even if your Maxima is very very recent, last of the line, it's struggling to be worth 50% more than the cost of the conversion, and won't be worth more afterwards (personally I walk away from LPG conversions - I can handle fuel bills, I'm less keen on acquiring yet another layer of technology fitted by a third party on my bangers).

Richard

Reply to
Richard Kilpatrick

Thanks for that Peter. Very informative and very good to know things like that - but can you actually *name* any of the systems you're talking about, 'cos otherwise I'm no better off :o(

I'm finding that installers either fit maybe three or four choices (out of more than a dozen) or tend to specialise in just one and of course, each installer pushes the kit they install as being the best - so it's chicken and egg in that I can't find which installer to go to to fit the best system, with out finding out what the best system is and then finding an installer that does that system. I need some independent advice from you folks here :o)

'Bout as good as CORGI then eh? :o)

John

Reply to
John

Lot of points there Richard but.......

It's 51 reg. and done 70,317 but I'm not phased by that as these cars are damn near bulletproof. I know of an R-reg (1997) A32 series that's done

174,000 without anything major and still counting. I'll average about 14,000 a year until it dies a complete death (hopefully many, many years down the line), and with round town mileage being in the region of 22 - 25 and motorway being about 34mpg on petrol, I reckon the gas conversion is well worth it - but I need to know what's considered to be the "best" (or at least a good system) and which ones I shouldn't touch with a 10ft bargepole.

As I said in my reply to Peter, I'm finding that installers either fit maybe three or four choices (out of more than a dozen) or tend to specialise in just one, and of course, each installer pushes the kit they install as being the best - so it's chicken and egg in that I can't find which installer to go to, to fit the best system, with out finding out what the best system is and then finding an installer that does that system

John

Reply to
John

If you want it done right do it yourself

Reply to
Martin

DIY on a V6 can be done for about £700 - £800

Reply to
Martin

And if someone presents me with a DIY job on a used car, I'll undervalue it by £1K if I consider buying it at all ;)

Richard

Reply to
Richard Kilpatrick

He said -

"That would be me. I fitted Aldesa RSI+ "

Reply to
DanB

How would you know? Of course it is because it works properly!

I have seen some shit pro installs, eg injectors hidden away with unequal pipe lengths - that one needed the injectors moving. Seen ECUs mounted in air boxes, hot water feeds from auxiliary water pumps.

My DIY install is around two years old and works perfectly

Reply to
Martin

Look, if Richard doesn't understand it, it's shit.

Don't you know *anything* ;-) ?

Reply to
DanB

That implies there are things that I don't understand :P

Car manufacturers spend rather a lot of money developing the induction and fuelling systems on their cars, and a monkey with a few pipes and valves trying to save a pittance on fuel costs (and it is, relative to the types of car that inevitably get LPG conversions, a pittance) is probably not going to quite match their standards of... finesse. Reliability. Longevity.

LPG is less efficient than petrol and it's only attractive to the bulk of buyers because of a tax loophole. It's also inevitably fitted to large, heavy, thirsty luxury vehicles because their cheapskate owners seem disinclined to simply run a cheaper car; fairly often negating the practicality of said larger car by shoving a bloody great big tank in the boot.

I am sure DIY people do a better job than the professionals. Professional fitters in the UK are generally employed by someone else and hired for their cost effective performance rather than their outright skills.

If LPG were taxed at the same rates as fuel, it would be deeply unattractive. Despite this low cost, no manufacturer has developed a pure LPG car for the UK market.

It's also worth looking up LPG's "environmental" credentials. They are very carefully presented; the actual numbers reveal greater amounts of CO, and in many cases almost double NOX, compared to petrol. Only CO2 shows a consistent reduction and it's very slight.

I'm not buying the line that because car manufacturers still use petrol and diesel, these are the RIGHT choices, or the only choices. However, LPG is a red herring and only of interest to people who primarily want to save money - a motive I would find all the more logical if they weren't shoving the kits in Jaguars, Range Rovers, Jeeps, Mercedes E-classes and the like.

I'm not bringing the bifuel cars from Vauxhall and Volvo into the equation because they are now notable by their absence from the lineups despite the apparent attractiveness of cheap fuel for the UK market. The Volvo "Flexifuel" cars are designed to accept E85 bioethanol fuel. I consider the bifuel models to have been a marketing "blip" that clearly did not meet with success either in terms of the longevity/reliability of the models or the sales success, targeting a short-lived Government promotion.

Richard

Reply to
Richard Kilpatrick

What, apart from already being inclined to look and go "Ew, it's got LPG" - and then when I ask for details of who fitted it, receipts, installers certificate etc...

Yep, I can well believe it. I don't doubt that $an_individual_with_half_a_brain can do a better job than $fitter if they make the effort. That applies to pretty much anything - on cars, buildings, almost everything where there is a mass market for the service.

Very good. I still wouldn't want your car, though, especially if it's missing half the boot or the spare wheel well.

Richard

Reply to
Richard Kilpatrick

I think you will find that's not true. I suspect what you meant to say was no manufacturer has had significant sales of a pure LPG car for the UK market.

Largely irrelevant. The truth is that petroleum contains a mixture of different chain length hydrocarbons from gasses to waxes and tars. To make use of it efficiently it makes sense to use all fractions, but our use is unbalanced, particularly for gas much of which is flared off. Having vehicles able to use petrol, diesel and lpg helps to spread the load.

At present, there's more demand for diesel (and kerosene) than for the lighter fractions. Hence the price differential between petrol and diesel. The tax on LPG is largely pragmatic. If it were much higher then people would use propane supplied for heating.

Reply to
Steve Firth

It seems these days, that is more a case of 40mpg on petrol (for instance) or like, 35mpg on LPG - which is less than half the price.

As you say, same with anything.

That's because a lot of people have these kind of ideas.

Meh, so?

Well no, it just makes the weekly running costs of such a beast more bearable. And if you're able to buy 2nd hand, conversion done, on a budget, it could mean you're running something with a huge engine for the same cost as something boring like a Mondeo.

No sales success because they were expensive to buy new.

Aren't all New York Taxi's LPG'd or something?

Reply to
DanB

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