Well - got the locost.

Indeed - the main problem with bikes is the lack of rider protection. If you fall off on a track you can slide to a halt on your leathers and be relatively OK. Everyone is going in the same direction, everyone is looking out for other bikes, there's no street furniture or trees to brake your limbs. On the road you've got drivers who don't see you, oncoming traffic that will run you over, trees and posts that will not be your friend, diesel spills etc. Idiot riders probably get away with things better by riding so fast they get thrown clear of whatever they hit and being more alert to what's around them, and maybe staying to the quieter roads. Commuter riders have to ride with such mega caution not to get get killed by the next careless driver to smack into the side of them on a junction.

This article on BEC and comparative costs was in the Telegraph a couple of weeks ago:

Performance car maker Westfield has switched from lightweight, high-revving bike engines to an Audi turbo for its new XTR4. Mark Hales explains why

Four years ago, the world of performance cars had something apparently new to contemplate - the motorcycle engine as a means of propulsion. Hardly a month went by without a hillclimb or autograss special popping up, complete with screaming, four-cylinder Japanese bike engine and six-speed sequential gearbox.

Before long, the usual suspects were at it, too. Caterham Cars, long-time maker of stripped-down, performance-focused specials, added Honda Blackbird or FireBlade engines to its options list and rival Westfield went one better by building the XTR2, a Le Mans prototype-style, open sports car with a

1,300cc Suzuki Hayabusa unit. Radical Sports had already done much the same and its similarly-powered SR3 and Kawasaki-engined Prosport open two-seaters were already upmarket favourites on the track day and amateur race circuit.

The motorcycle-engined car was nothing new, however. Bike engines had already been seen in road cars (such as Morgan three-wheelers) and racing machinery (Stirling Moss started his career in a JAP-powered Cooper), but for the enthusiast of the late 1990s they certainly seemed the answer to a host of needs. Bike engines had been developed at such a frantic pace since the 1960s that 1,000cc and 150bhp was the norm, they were light in weight and, as far as the amateur special-builder was concerned, inexpensive when compared with their automotive counterparts. The bike breakers would sell you a bang up-to-date, four-cylinder, 1,000cc motorcycle engine and gearbox with only a few miles on it for about £1,000. Added to which, they were surprisingly tough and those who predicted that the stresses of car use would soon destroy them were generally proved wrong. But perhaps more than that, a bike engine sounded like a real racer. The smaller ones will rev to

13,000rpm, more than half as much again as the revviest of modern Japanese hatchbacks, making mechanical music that a car driver can hear so much better than a rider exposed to the breeze. Meanwhile, the constant pumping at a lever to sort through six sequentially shifted ratios always made you feel like a touring car driver.

None of that has changed and there are still devotees who wouldn't have anything else, but the wider market has not proved as buoyant. Some say that buyers liked the idea of a peaky, howling engine and the need to change gear twice as often, but not the reality. Caterham's sales and marketing director Andy Noble says his company spent a lot of time and money engineering an installation for bike power units but only sold about 50 cars. "We were looking for a power to weight advantage at a budget price - which we found - but there were also side effects that we discovered along the way," he reveals. "If we accept that a Caterham is already a focused performance car, then a bike-engined one is infinitely more so, and to a degree that a lot of people couldn't cope with. They think it's great for about half an hour."

There are also commercial considerations, because manufacturers found it extremely difficult to guarantee a supply of engines. Large Japanese concerns in particular are extremely protective of their products and especially of the alternative uses to which they might be put. Westfield sales director Richard Smith says that he had no option but to buy a new bike, remove the engine then sell the virgin remains to a breaker. While this might be good news for the biker who has slid down the road and bent everything but himself, it is hardly good business for a cost-conscious car manufacturer.

Of the best established trio of Caterham, Westfield and Radical, the last is the only one still relying on bike power and it is highly significant that it is the only one successfully to have negotiated with Kawasaki and Suzuki for a supply of new engines. It is also relevant that Radicals are intended mainly for the racetrack. But apart from the commercial aspect, was the bike engine a perfect opportunity scuppered by politics? The Westfield XTR4 pictured here is now on the market and it neatly sums up the differences between the two sources of power. The new car is essentially a development of the bike-powered XTR2, but with a 1.8-litre, turbocharged engine and six-speed gearbox from an Audi TT. From Westfield's point of view, the Audi powertrain has the big advantage of availability, as Audi will sell the engine/gearbox assembly ready to drop in for about £4,000; compare that with £6,000 for a Suzuki Hayabusa unit.

Turbo petrol engines are not as common as they were and the engineering focus has switched to turbodiesels but, where a manufacturer has continued to make petrol turbos, the latest technology has brought similar benefits in response and refinement. From the Westfield's driving seat, the new powertrain makes the XTR feel much more muscular - despite a similar power output to the bike-engined version and nearly 200lb extra weight - and it's a lot easier to access the performance. Instead of pumping away at the gearlever, which is fine when you're in the mood, I needed only fourth and fifth gears to negotiate the Bedford Autodrome circuit more quickly than was previously possible, and in much more relaxed fashion. The mid-range punch of a boosted engine is always the surge you notice and although it's a different style of progress, you'd have to say it makes the car feel more grown up.

As usual in these things, success in the marketplace comes down to economics, and to supply and demand. The bike engine as a means of car propulsion is certainly not extinct but the goalposts have moved. It will be interesting to see what develops in the next few years.

Good choice, make sure you go for the TI tho :)

Let me assure you that this is a long way from the truth!

Just try getting hold of a known good condition, 900-1200cc, low mileage sportsbike engine 'ready to run' for that kind of money.

Some moody breaker somewhere may sell you a bare engine for that - but complete with either carbs / throttle body and electronic box of tricks it's going to cost close on double that at the least - I see later they quote up to £6k for a 'turnkey' 'Busa unit in a ready to run state.

"SteveH" wrote;

Like I say do some research, a Lotus 7 replica weighs about 450kg so the brakes aren't a problem a BE locost stops alot easier than a Sierra due to the huge weight difference which is why bike engines work in them in the first place. A set of bike brakes aren't considered man enough to stop a locost because it weighs twice as much. They stop a 180bhp bike no problem so do you think a big lardy set of Sierra brakes are going to struggle stopping a Locost? Suspension £300 from Kitcar producers. Standard diff and propshaft used (from the Sierra donor) with modifications made to the propshaft (as its too long) total cost for modification £60, you can buy a modified one from some kitcar producers for £90. All that's required is a adapter flange to connect the BE sprocket to the Sierra propshaft total cost £80. The only problem with using the Busa engine is a dry sump kits required to stop oil surge, the only reason people go for this is due to the cost of the engine £3k they seem to think the dry-sump kits a good investment. The reason I'm going for the Ninja/Blade engine to start with is they don't require any of that, a simple sump baffle will suffice these cost about £50. I did want to try a Gixxer engine but they are pretty much new to the scene of BEC and I think its going to be easier to let others do the research first, then I can build one after the Ninja/Blade.

If you actually did some research you would see people have built bike engined locosts with total costs of £3000-£7000 the higher price range is because they bought practically everything from a kitcar producer rather than trying to source and modify stuff themselves, (the true idea of a locost) plus nice interiors, seats and alloys don't come cheap, one can make do till funds allow nice interiors and alloys though, they don't make them handle any better or go faster.

Check out this website

it has all thepricing information you will need. Or even read some of the posts on the BEC and MK Indy GT1 forums. Need we continue this or will you accept you are wrong?

Steve.

P.S. Builders of these cars range from mechanical engineers to butchers who never changed the oil on a car, so to says its easy to build is an understatement, £6k buys you practically a mechano kit a fool could complete.

"SteveH" wrote ;

Thanks for the tip, I'll stay clear of them, ok how about an R1 motor for £1k from Zcars. Bike engines are piss easy to pick up really cheap, you daft power-rangers keep totalling them, but luckily leave a minter engine. Maybe CMS was a bad example going by your comments, but their prices are the going rate from many suppliers I simply used them as an example. As they have a website and the infomation can be proved very simply.

The whole engine kit, fuel pumps, wiring loom, etc....... trust me everything!

How come? Check this site out

go tell allthe posters they are liars because it cant be done, especially the guy whojust finished the build on 3 R1 engined locosts to go to Spain, this week.

Nope they are not I checked this, they include everything I need, I even have a nice detailed list of components supplied by someone elses build diary just so I dont miss anything, and how much is an ignition box going to cost anyway? MK supply a full electrics kit (loom, relays etc) for BEC for £100.

Please stop posting your crap and visit the sites I've mentioned in this and other posts before telling me I cant get/do what I know I can.

Steve.

We could probably set up a book on this one and start taking bets.

"Grant Mason" wrote;

Didn't read it thoroughly but the prices it quotes for Busa engines are twice what they fetch SH. No locoster would be seen dead in a Westfield or Catering-van. The kits are way too expensive.

Steve.

"SteveH" wrote ;

Few bits and bobs to finish on the house; bathroom, new fire, then the garage gets a new roof and fresh lick of paint and systems are well and truly go...

Steve.

I think I know a _little_ more about the bike engine bits than you do. And you're not going to get much engine for a grand. Unless it's a tad warm. But you wouldn't know how to spot that anyway.

"Sales!" wrote ;

Care to give some odds, I could put an accumulator on with me thrashing him round a twisty track.

Steve.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You do realise that even a single 'blade engined Locost will come in at half the power / weight of my VFR, don't you?

All academic of course, as my wife has more spannering ability than you.

"SteveH" wrote;

It was mechanically and structurally sound, the fact it had a few owners and had been written off once, but professionally repaired/rebuilt has nothing what to do with any mechanical knowledge. The fact I thrashed 309 Gtis, and even a Sierra Cosworth (he bottled out) goes to show how sound the car was.

This has nothing to do with building a Locost, once again you bring up the only thing which could possibly be perceived as a mistake time and time again, shows alot. I paid a fair price for it, and got £600 less than I paid when I traded it in. The dealer knew its full history through a HPi check.

Steve.

And then you woke up.

No, it was the way you declared it 'the best car in the group' when it was a written off dog, that you bought without any documentation. Hardly the sort of form you'd expect from someone who reckons they can build a bike engined Locost.

You really are a prize f****it.

"SteveH" wrote;

Debatable. I clearly know alot more about sticking one in a locost though.

Like I say "do some research". I might even add that to a signature.

Steve.

"SteveH" wrote ;

In jest, it certainly had the desired effect, almost 3 years after I sold the car its still talked about...

Steve.

Yea, but your dad's a porker :)

lol :P

"SteveH" wrote;

Wimp, It'll be on the track in not road by next Summer.

Steve.