Running a car on water via electrolysis

Let's see the plan. Where will the natural gas come from?

What kind of future production over the next two decades?

Shale has yet to show a positive ERoEI.

You can call it oil. Peak oil is about production, not stuff that will hardly make a dent.

That is silly. We are using the easy stuff, that is why the ME produces. Show me real plans that will be in place over the next two decades that will counter declines in the easy stuff and another 25 mb/d of demand.

Strawman.

What is relevant here? You do understand we get that oil for free?

And your point?

You are getting very off topic. The issue is peak oil and the impact on world economies.

The USA has more oil in saudi arabia, just that most of it is in the form of oil shale. High oil prices make it profitable to use.

Maybe if the oil company stooges in office weren't so busy trying to fabricate reasons to go to war with Iran, the price of oil might come down.

It could be said because studies have shown there are many decades of oil out there. Some of it is just a bit harder, i.e. more expensive to get to.

Then there is all the oil the US Congress will not let us drill for. There are places in Alaska and large areas off the coast of California and Florida that are off limits. To me it makes some sense to use up all the oil from other places before we use our own.

IIRC, garbage can be used to make methane easier and cheaper than alcohol.

I haven't argued for natural gas.

How should I know? All I've seen is size of the reported find. No wells and the production will be zero.

Peak oil is about creating artifical scaricity to increase prices.

At great cost to the US taxpayer and lives of military personel. That cost isn't reflected on the oil company balance sheets.

My point is there are _NO_ plans because the taxpayer foots the bill in the middle east. The oil however is there.

That seems to be the crux of your argument. So what is your argument for not going after it? Not trying?

Who's 'we'? The nation's taxpayers are being put closer and closer to a trillion dollars in debt to China alone to pay just for Iraq. That's not free. Maybe you mean the oil companies get oil for trivial royalties... or maybe you mean the military gets some oil from saudi for nothing. It's still costing the US taxpayer a giagantic sum and putting the US economy in the hands of China.

If you can't figure out that it makes the 'cheap' oil anything but, there's no point in continuing.

Maybe that's your narrow band topic, it has never been mine. You free not to reply.

Hydrogen does have advantages if used in fuel cells, and that is the reason for it's use, not an ICE.

Hydrogen is as good as gasoline for an EV of any kind, like HEV, PHEV, etc.

Joe Fischer

Ethanol _IS_ cost-efficient if it is made and used locally, the distribution system to make it cost effective every place doesn't exist at this time, and chances are the price of oil will free-fall before ethanol becomes available nationwide.

Joe Fischer

Crimmany. We already know what can be done with CTL. We have lot's of coal for the near term.

Kerogen is shit compared to coal.

Kook.

This is old. Show me the plan that addresses many 10 of quads a year. What we could do and what we are doing are two different things.

Tell me how economies will survive demand destruction.

Compare this 'garbage' numbers and cost to cheap oil at 175 current quads a year.

It takes natural gas, (and a lot of water), to process sand oil.

Very well then.

You don't have any idea, do you?

We get that oil for free. That the current administration wants to put a stick in the middle east is something else.

You are not addressing the issue.

Going after what? It take leadership to fix things. It is not happening. It is about the numbers. Don't make this about me, it makes you look stupid.

You seem to know nothing about how world economies work.

How do you figure? We get all that Chines labor making our trinkets and all we send them are U.S. Securities.

Bye bye........

Gee, where can I buy a fuel cell vehicle for less than a million bucks? When will you get your head out of your ass?

No, it is not.

Uninformed Boob.

"Natural gas is a key power source for oil sands projects. It is used as fuel to heat the steam used to liquefy the tar-like bitumen for thermal, well-based projects." I think we can make steam with other energy sources. I hear nuke plants are very good for making steam.... wait, that's exactly what they do to turn the turbines.

It's clear you've fallen for it. Try reading an exxon annual report sometime. They are finding oil faster than they are pumping it.

Who's this 'we'? I'm not getting 'free oil'. I see the government racking up debt and printing money that is acting to destroy the value of my savings to pay for military operations in the middle east.

Oh, that's right, you think you get to define the issue into a narrow band where it suits you. I wasn't discussing peak oil, you came in and started that nonsense.

Which is my point. DUH!

Exactly, peak oil is nothing more than artifical scaricity. The numbers don't work because the cheap oil can flood the market and make the more expensive oil a money loser in heart beat.

Asking you to clairify what you are arguing isn't making it about you. But what was your name calling in the other post?

It's not about the world economy. Saudi arabia is not paying for US military operations in Iraq. The US government is racking up huge amounts of debt off budget to pay for it. This debt is to be repaid by TAXES.

What do mean by that? Default and tank the dollar? Wipe out the savings of millions of people?

Good riddence.

Pot, kettle.

Also: "It's also a source of heat and hydrogen in mining and upgrading projects, which turn bitumen into synthetic crude."

See, now it is becoming a coulda....

No, I've done my homework. I've fallen only for what the numbers say.

Link? I'll take it from guys that have done their homework.

You are getting free oil and goods from china. If it were not free, what are they getting in return? BTW, the government doesn't 'print' money.

Peak oil and the impact on economies is a rather broad topic.

You wrote, 'In reality though, we aren't running out of oil...'

Close enough for me.

So, we have a problem. And, woulda, coulda, shoulda are not relevant.

Keep saying it often enough and you may create the reality, not.

You have to have excess capacity. Where is it?

Well, you snipped. But what the hell this isn't adding up to zip.

???? You are not getting this. We give the ME and China paper for their goods. Who said it will ever be paid back?

Christ. You can't 'wipe out the dollar' in isolation. The Asian finical crisis could never have happened if you could.

Ditto.

>

Right! That's why Brazil is using predominantly ethanol despite being so close to energy-rich Venezuela. Your logic is superb!

You're right. Methanol is not so easy to come by from garbage. Methane is rather easily obtained by bacterial decomposition of most things. Including chicken shit. The Chinese have used this technology for decades in simple digesters.

Some garbage can be fermented to ethanol, but not all of it.

As mentioned earlier, the cycle needs to be evaluated thoroughly.

It doesnt do much good to raise corn if you have to feed it beaucoups ammonia (source petroleum), and work the fields with tractors based on diesel or gasoline.