134a Refrigerant

Don't forget that the single biggest source of atmospheric fluorocarbons are volcanoes.

I'm sure volcanoes will feel responsible and penitent if we start starving... It's like throwing litter - just because a place is untidy, that doesn't give us an excuse to make it worse. It's part of treading lightly in my book.

Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

You are ignorant, or confused, or both.... or just evil :)

Volcanos don't spew flourocarbons... you're thinking of Rush Limbaugh, aren't you? Well, megadittoes to you! Anyway, volcanos spew HCl, or hydrochloric acid. This stuff is very reactive and water-soluble and is purged from the atmosphere readily. *Chlorinated* fluorocarbons like R12, R22, Freon(tm) et al have an atmospheric half-life of around 100 years... this is how they get up to the stratosphere and are broken down by UV, releasing the chlorine where it can do the most damage to the ozone layer.

In other words, I urge everyone to *forget* that volcanos are the 'single biggest source of atmospheric fluorocarbons'... utter nonsense. Don't be a ditto head... educate yourself.

Yeah, had a couple too many beers I guess when I calculated the cost to the pound. Still extremely expensive considering I can get R 22 for about a buck a pound and R 134a for close to the same price. I think someone is leading this guy down the wrong road about the shortage of 134a.

Nathan W. Collier wrote:

JohnM wrote:

OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......

1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few other factors I won't get into now.

Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry, and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR system.

1. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings, etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are just not around any more.......for a reason. With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices before I would ever even consider amonia or propane.... I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground, and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.

I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.

I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store, go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail order it.......

Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved, and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system. And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........

but there is _no_ scientific evidence of refrigerant causing the depletion of the ozone. in fact, the atomic weight of chlorine is heavier than air making it nearly impossible for it to ever reach the ozone anyway. it all boils down to money. when duponts patent expired on 12, suddenly it was deemed "bad" for the environment.

please explain how they get to the stratoshpere.

in montana there is no such thing as to many beers. :-)

well, I have no idea. However, to quote NASA:

"but the link between CFC's and Ozone depletion, and the major factors creating the antarctic ozone hole, are considered by most researchers to be well established facts"

Consequently, until I can be bothered to get a Chemistry degree, I'll err on the side of caution and do my best to tread lightly.

Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

Can you show us a link giving that information as a scientific result? I didn't think so...

Here's a link:

Several pieces of evidence combine to establish human-produced halocarbons as the primary source of stratospheric chlorine. First, measurements have shown that the chlorinated species that rise to the stratosphere are primarily manufactured compounds [mainly CFCs, carbon tetrachloride, methyl chloroform, and the hydrochlorofluorocarbon (HCFC) substitutes for CFCs], together with small amounts of hydrochloric acid (HCl) and methyl chloride (CH3Cl), which are partly natural in origin. Second, researchers have measured nearly all known gases containing chlorine in the stratosphere. They have found that the emissions of the human-produced halocarbons, plus the much smaller contribution from natural sources, could account for all of the stratospheric chlorine. Third, the increase in total stratospheric chlorine measured between 1980 and 1998 corresponds to the known increases in concentrations of human-produced halocarbons during that time.

Evidently *someone* has been measuring stratospheric chlorine since the early '80s... I wonder how? __ Steve .

Everyone knows... it's the Polar Vortex! Unless you don't trust NASA...

Now, if you could coax the polar vortex to sit over LA... you'd all get skin cancer before it would help. __ Steve .

once again there is nothing proven there. "considered by most" means that it has never been proven.

wow, never heard that one before........sounds like a load of CR$P