lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal tactic that failed miserably.
WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation. "room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact, another typical seminar liberal tactic.
You're talking liquid O2 temps there, propane boils, at atmospheric pressure, around -44F. Oxygen boils at -297.. you sure about that temp? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know heaps about refrigeration, but I know some and this is a pretty low temperature.
I didn't suggest anyone use propane as a replacement for R22, I just pointed out an interesting fact while free-associating; it's a perfect, cheap, compatible replacement. I'm pretty certain it's illegal, otherwise it'd be used in place of R22. Anyone interested can look it up. Using it where a leak could be exposed to people or a enclosed area would be a bad idea.
As far as the research, it's already been done- google will find lots of info on it for you.
I made a mistake in the way I wrote concerning ammonia. As you state, it's an excellent refrigerant, but if anyone were to use it in their car or house they'd be inviting disaster. It's Mean Stuff, a good whiff of it will damage a person (or other animal) for life. I erred in failing to point that out, my free-association was going and I didn't catch it. My mistake, and it's good you responded and pointed it out.
R134a is also bad stuff- nothing like ammonia, but worse than you'd expect for something that's allowed to be risked in a closed enviroment like an automobile. Again, google it for reliable information.
John
Your probably right about its boiling temp. I would have to refer to a pressure temperature chart to know for sure. I'll take your word on it, for the temps and cross referencing. I'm not aware of any systems out there that use just propane as a sole refrigerant. The ultra low systems I'm talking about use what is called a azotropic refrigerant. Which is 2 or more refrigerants working together to form the desired results. In these Ultra Low applications, Propane is generally used with 3 or 4 other refrigerants in the system They all have different boiling points. I believe they use the propane in there in a small quantity because it aids in the oil flow through the system at those low temperatures. I'm not that familiar with those refrigerants though. I've only worked on a couple and that was about 5 years ago at NOAA in the Seattle Wa port. I had to add a few ounces of this, and a few ounces of that, etc.... to get the thing correct. I'm pretty sure thats the only reason the propane is added though, for the oil qualities. When getting to that low of a temperature, its pretty tricky with the refrigerants and the oils being used. I was fortunate enough to get a little experience working on them, to learn. But generally there are tech's who work on that stuff all the time and specialize in the ultra low stuff. If I had a service call today on one, I would probably try and locate someone more experienced for them, but would work on it and figure it out if they were in a pinch. Usually more efficient when someone is familiar with the system. I hope it didn't sound like I was jumping on you or anyone else about the propane or the amonia. If it did, I apppologize. That was not my intent. They are both excellent refrigerants, but damn, I just don't want to work on a system using them. There was a factory in Germany I think, using R 134a for its ac system in their cranes. They had piped the system in PVC tubing. Seriously, they did. They had multiple leaks in the systems on all of thier cranes, and ALL of the crane operators developed mysterious tumorous growths and all died within a year. Pretty flippin scary. Makes me wonder what I'll come down with when I'm 50.
JohnM wrote:
No, because you started the name-calling, I can call you whatever I want. I chose to tar you with the extreme right... completely apropos for what you chose to tar me with. "Go negative early... never give up"... I think I'll adopt Newt's credo AFA you're concerned...
Notice you didn't deny belonging to a militia... what about our trips to the Moon? Dodging the question, F-.
You admitted you can't give me a link to back up your assertion that chlorine can't make it to the stratosphere... here's a link, by an HVAC industry periodical:
Still on with the 'L' word? I'll give you two back... Jeff Gannon, your buddy. (that was four, you got a bonus!)
Science, by definition, is self-modifying. You want surety, go to church. Science is all about probabilities.
Do you assert that Science doesn't leave room for doubt? That's the problem here... you don't have the first clue how Science is done. You can say something is a scientific 'fact'... but it can be proven wrong the next day. Science is done on a preponderance of evidence... but at *no* time can a completely sure conclusion be drawn. Mathematics is the only science that can approach this level of certainty... and Gödel showed that it cannot remain both complete and consistant. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle removed certainty from Physics. All other sciences are based on these two.
Any time Science doesn't leave 'room for doubt', it ceases to be Science, and becomes Faith. You can have your Faith... just don't call it Science. __ Steve .
horseshit. are you suggesting that you arent a liberal? c'mon tell the truth.....you voted for kerry, and gore before him. :-)
once again i call horseshit. you compared me with tim mcveigh who was a domestic terrorist, and not a right wing conservative. on second thought, i know you liberals look at _all_ right wing conservatives in the same manner as we would look at tim mcveigh. your comparison is truly amongst the most assinine statements ive ever read in any newsgroup. a new low that screams of your own ignorance and agenda.
simply not worthy of response as i have no intention of lowering myself to your red hearrings and desperate attempt at getting off the subject that all ive asked for is conclusive evidence. all you can provide is "could be's".
horseshit. i conceeded that i have no proof of duponts patent running out. my assertion of chlorine is a simple matter of atomic weight that anyone can look up. from
make all the excuses you care to, you can NOT show me one single bit of CONCLUSIVE evidence to back up your liberal whinings because it simply does not exist.
then show me something conclusive. no "could be's" which is all youve given me thus far.
so call me a conservative and i wont whine about name calling. youre a liberal. you wear it, you may as well own it. calling you a liberal isnt "name calling", especially when its painfully obvious to anyone reading your drivvel.
CONCLUSIVE evidence. no "could be, might be, probably is" crap.
ive never tried to over simply it, but that doesnt change one basic point. heavier gas does not rise above lighter gas.
your link means NOTHING. its not an "industry link". industry link would suggest universal acceptance within the hvac industry. you quoted one source from within the hvac industry. i work within the refrigeration/hvac industry and have forgot more about it than you could begin to hope to know so dont try to tell me how the hvac industry feels about anything.
statement of fact from a _credible_ source without leaving the back-door for when its proven wrong.
so tell me CONCLUSIVELY where its coming from. you cant. could it be naturally occuring in the stratosphere and falling down? fact is you (or your links) dont have any idea where its coming from which is why the save-face is left in every document youve quoted.
proving that the atomic weight of chlorine is heavier than oxygen and carbon. heavier gases do not rise above lighter ones.
Evidence exists that the polar vortex is a natural phenomenon and existed before cfc's were widely used. Has to do with the large temperature variation between the Antarctic continent and the surrounding ocean...the land mass is supercooled during the Antarctic winter, and the increased temperature varaiation causes massive upper-level winds that disperse the atmospheric ozone over the Antarctic.
You're the kind of liberal that gives the rest of us a bad name. Rush is a pompous ass, so I didn't even know he had agreed with it.
What's the cfc emission rate over the Antarctic land mass?
OK, I can see propane doing the job of moving the lubricant, it'll not yet freeze at -300F. Do you remember the low side pressure and temp on that system? I'd wonder if the propane ever evaporated..
Nope, I didn't feel jumped on- I reread my post and realized that it really sounded bad, sounded like I was suggesting ammonia for automovie AC.. You were doing a service to anyone who might have read it to point that out, anyone who uses it quickly gains a great respect for it (the farmers, for instance) but it's very possible for someone to have a first experience with it and not last long enough to gain the respect. I wouldn't want to have to try to go to sleep if I were aware that my suggestion had brought something of that sort about, bringing attention to it was a good thing.
I didn't know 134 was as bad as you relate- I knew it was worse stuff than you'd want leaking inside your car and that it can have effects seemingly out of proportion to the concentration inhaled, but holy cow that sounds bad. Really bad..
Refrigeration interests me, it's mighty ingenious and one of those things that impresses me about humans- the fact that we do such things.. I've got a decent grasp of phase changes, latent heat, that stuff, but only a little practical experience. If it weren't for the laws I'd have more experience, refrigeration guys near me charge big bucks and sometimes don't do a great job.
John
Exactly... the CFC's didn't cause the vortex, but the vortex exacerbates the CFC problem. Glad to see you're finally coming around... :) __ Steve .
'Drivvel'? Self-referential, that...
Why is air a mixture of gases? Why is it not all Argon down here? By your ignorance, we should all be dead now... the Oxygen layer would be several thousand feet up.
refrigeration/hvac
Do you dispute that the HVAC industry is not in agreement over ozone depletion? I cited an industry periodical... perhaps you could do the same, if your assertion holds water... go ahead, cite one. We're waiting...
You'll have to ask your pastor for that one... oh, btw:
Now you've admitted that Chlorine is found in the stratosphere... are you going to assert that it's coming from outer space?
Then why did you admit that NASA measures stratospheric chlorine? Why is it not falling down here? Why are we not drowning in Argon? __ Steve .
How many coconuts can a European swallow carry? __ Steve .
??
[Excerpt from article on volcanoes in Douglas M. Considine, editor, Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia, 7th Edition (New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1989), p. 2973:1]How about that date? Pretty current stuff!
Notice: " 12th May 1998: Fort Freedom has won the Enter Stage Right Conservative Site of the Day Award! "
No agenda there!
You don't understand... or are actively ignorant. UV light breaks down the CFCs... the CFC's don't break down until they get to the UV light. The ozone layer keeps the UV light out... so until the CFC's get to the stratosphere, they are not broken down. This means that CFC's hang around for hundreds of years, until they hit the upper atmosphere. __ Steve .
Oxygen by it's self is not flammable. All though that small amount we trapped in a glass in high school chemistry, sure made the magnesium burn brightly. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto: snipped-for-privacy@aol.com
I agree, Bill... you can't change.... : )
BTW, didn't you get Dominion? Why aren't you using your Dominion (with a capital 'D'!)? __ Steve .
You're making the assumption that I am a Bush-worshipping Dittohead.
This
CFC's haven't been around for hundreds of years, that's why the model is flawed.
So you're admitting that cfc's don't cause the ozone hole. Thank you.
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