134a Refrigerant

I didn't know one had to be an AC/HVAC/Refrigeration tech to understand chemistry.

Happy to help:

--------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nathan W. Collier" Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys Subject: Re: 134a Refrigerant Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:18:16 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews,

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yeah no s*it! refrigerant is a compound, a MIXTURE and when you add up all the components they are heavier than the individual components.

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did I see MIXTURE???

Do they recognize the word "Freon" and understand what you are referring to? If so, then the term was sufficient.

Likewise, if you want to be the big man and discuss science there is a lot of terminology and concepts you have to get straight.

Since you wanted to quibble a term which is very much in the common vernacular, in subsequent posts I switched to Dichlordiflouromethane. I even drew you a picture so we could agree on common terms. Regardless, it is still a compound, and can in no way be characterized as a "mixture". Also, not all compounds are heavier/denser/have a higher specific gravity/ than their constituent elements, so you are wrong on two accounts.

No, just a demonstration that reasonable people recognize freon-12 as a specific entity, and by in-large use the term generically.

Yee-Ha, I got a "liberal lame"! apparently anyone who thinks you are a dumbass must be a liberal...

So as you asserted that "refrigeration" has nothing to do with "HVAC," why is "refrigerant" proper terminology for the industy?

"refrigerant" is both the proper terminoloy _and_ the commonly

i didnt call you on the chemistry. i called you on the terminology. stay on track.

to clarify...look right before that where i said it is a compound. mixture was added as further explanation but i clearly stated "refrigerant is a compound".

only to the ignorant.

show me where i ever said ALL compounds were heavier. im referencing refrigerants.

and many people recognize a "gat" as a gun....doesnt make it proper.

nope. just you and your liberal buddy stephen. :-)

HVAC = Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning. HVAC/R = Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning/Refrigeration

the basic function of refrigerant is the same both in refrigeration and air conditioning. the refrigerant picks up heat as it evaporates and releases it elsewhere when it condenses. this is why a medium temp refrigerant is still a refrigerant, its serving the same basic function. the industry however, is entirely different. low temp applications require far more critical design, componentry, and especially training. you take a guy with

Just curious, are you qualified to work on old York commercial A/C units? Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat exchanger...there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any experience on them. We tried another repair company and they just screwed the whole thing up. right now our systems take water from the city line, uses it for the heat transfer from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the sewer. As expensive as our water bills are in the summer, it' still cheaper than replacing the units for a 24,000 squ ft building...we still might try to install a closed-loop water system with radiators on the roof but that's mucho dinero as well, and with the economy in MI the way it is we have to spend every spare penny on promotion to get the customers in....

What you describing is a unit that uses the water to condense the refrigerant. Many commercial units of that size used a cooling water tower to recycle the water back into the system. Water was only made up to the tower as it evaporated. Other cost was associated with this. You must add chemicals to the tower to maintain the algae levels and conductivity are you will have a problem. Despite the cost of replacement, it may be beneficial due to running more economical system over a given time period. Better Seer rating and less maintenance.

I worked at a large industrial complex. We have commercial AC units that are still running since they were put in 1954. Parts are not available for some. They have been modified by the on site HVAC man. The wiring diagrams do not mean crap because he rewired them to keep them running. They won't replace the unit unless it cannot be fixed.

We also have large chillers on the plant. York Refrigeration has a contract to repair these. Most use are newer then the AC units we have on the plant. It comes down to simple economics. Replace a chiller that may cost 350 thousand dollars because it is better then having down time and loosing a million dollars a day in lost production. However no lose production occurs when a HVAC unit goes out. Office workers suffer due to the no AC but they just moved their meetings to a building where the AC is working.

The HVAC repair company on the plant has switch 5 times since I been there but they all hire the guy that has been working on the units due to his knowledge of the equipment. He makes his on hours and they give him a vehicle to come back and forth to work in. He is at work at 3 AM and home by 1 AM Monday through Thursday. This man is unbelievable. He takes every unit apart once a year and cleans the unit and waxes both inside and outside.

Sarge

yes. the only area i dont consider myself qualified on yet is ground source/geo thermal. i have field experience and can work through most issues but have no formal training on them yet. ill be in the next course offered by water furnace.

a water cooled condensor. these days its more common in refrigeration applications but i still see a lot of it in upper end homes (people who dont want to hear a fan running and can afford to buy the water). while ground source is more efficient, many dont have the yard for the loops so they run water cooled.

thats what i love about this industry. if you apply yourself to learn you can make a great honest living.

really not uncommon, although i rarely see it anymore in hvac applications.

some of those older units are amazing. i bet theyre still running when equipment installed today is long since dead.

swamp coolers suck in most applications. totally different principle from a water cooled condensor.

take a red hot piece of steel and blow a fan over it. now take a red hot piece of steel and dunk it under water. which cools it faster? :-) water cooled condensors run hot refrigerant through a tube that is inside another tube running water through it. its very effiicient, effective, and quiet.

I think out building was built in the late 50's/early 60's and these are probably the originial units. There may have been a cooling tower at one point, there is a frame on the roof that was a support for some kind of machinery....maybe it toasted and the owner at the time didn't want to replace it so he rigged a city water inlet and sewer dump...

The compressors are discontinued, we know, and we have one unit running on only one compressor (normally there are 2) and it's not keeping up with these hot humid days. he's going to try to retrofit a newer compressor into it. He is a former employee of our old HVAC company who works for a different one, but we subcontract out the work direct to him. He also happens to be the husband of one of our staff...

Water is not the refrigerant. The water is used instead of air on the condenser. Water is used in a lot of system that have a high heat load. The water helps condense the refrigerant back into a liquid after it has been compressed. The liquid refrigerant then passes through a metering device (capillary tube, orifice, expansion valve) to feed the evaporator. The air that passes over the evaporator transfers heat with the refrigerant. This turns the freon back to a gas. It then gets compressed again and the cycle starts over.

If water is used on the condenser, the water is either disposed or recycled in a closed loop system. Water can come from the city supply and use to supply water to your water heater. What not used is sent to the sewer, drain or pumped into the ground. If ground water is used, water is pumped to the condenser and back to the ground.

If the system is closed loop, the water is circulated from the condenser in to a tower called a cooling water tower. Air then cools the water back off and it is pumped back to system. Make up water is needed and the water must be chemically treated to prevent algae and conductivity problems with the metal. The cooling water tower usually has a fan that pulls air upward while the water drains downward.

These type of system are used where they may be one unit supplying multiple evaporators. This allows individual zones to be adjust their temperature without affecting other zones. In order for the unit to run properly there is probably a spill back line that is adjusted to allow minimum refrigerant flow yet will close down when a load is needed, This is one problem area on the units is the spill back valve. They can stick in one position thus causing HVAC problems.

Sarge

elements, with a fixed ratio determining the composition. For example, = dihydrogen monoxide (water, H2O) is a compound composed of two hydrogen = atoms for every oxygen atom.

physical property, rather than an arbitrary man-made selection. This is = why materials such as brass, the superconductor YBCO, the semiconductor = aluminium gallium arsenide, or chocolate are considered mixtures or = alloys rather than compounds.

I believe that I told you what I think the definitions are... don't you think that I knew this before I googled them? Why else would I say that you don't have a clue as to the proper chemistry definition of a mixture or a compound? At least now you know... that is, if you'll believe some Liberal Academic sources... I wonder where the Republicon Non- Academic sources are? __ Steve .

Ad Hominem... abusive. Red Herring, as well.

Recall your big howler...

Two big mistakes... mistaking compound for mixture, and saying that the mixture weighs more than the individual components. I almost pissed myself, laughing!

I assure you that there are plenty of folk of both political parties who understand the issue here... you just happen to be one of the ignorant Righties. : P __ Steve .

Indeed you are! __ Steve .

Show the lie... or FOAD. =20

You don't have a clue about your limitations... imagine you, an HVAC tech, making pronouncements about atmospheric science! That shows *extreme* hubris... you deserve what you get. =20

No, the criteria was replacement of the HMC on a rooftop... it could have started leaking, or otherwise malfunctioned. You're *really* grasping at straws now... trying to weasel in another condition! I must be right! =20

Oohh.... calling me a liar some more! Piss up a rope. If you'd had half a brain in your head, you'd have said "Freon is a brand, Freon 22 is a compound!"... but that half a brain went wanting. =20

You gonna do some Clintonesque squirming about the definition of 'is'? Can you name a Freon that is not a compound?

Keep squirming... it's fun to watch! __ Steve .

Do you do cryo? __ Steve .