Torque Steer

Oh I see where you're coming from. You reckon that when non-rich people were able to afford cars, that's when it went wrong?

"The rest of us" have to put up with?

You and whom, exactly?

No its a vehicle/physics problem. For people like you that drive like my granny, dont tow, and cant feel or tell the difference maybe there isnt a problem.

For those that can its a car problem.

All of us that dont like underseering wheelspinning torque steering front drive shopping trolleys. In other words anyone that can feel and knows the difference.

All of one from the bleating I'm reading here.

Anyone? Hardly. Most BMW drivers don't know what end their car is driven... or care for that matter.

In ordinary driving it doesn't matter what end is driven either, with the one exception of many RWDs have a tight turning circle.

Yeah but some of these 'shopping trolleys' can be huge amounts of fun IMHO. A 205 GTi for example. 90% of the time you wont notice the difference but when you wanna push it you just have to drive in a different way.

And you're moaning about FWD not being able to handle any power, in which case surely RWD is also flawed too as 4WD would be better. Why have 2 wheels putting down the power when you can have 4?

Well almost but its the other way around. FWD cars have crap turning circles because of cv joint angles which restricts them.

If you dont know which wheels drive your car then how the hell are you remotely under any sort of control??? I agree most people dont. Thats why the manufacturers get away with front drive!

If you cant tell the difference or it doesent bother you then thats fine by me. But I can. Almost instantly..

Here is the part I dont get. I can tell as I pull away. Even if I pull away reasonably gently, by the feel on the steering, without pulling away hard and getting torque steer. The part I dont get is why non of you seem to be able to "feel" this? What about when turning left out of a side street. Put your foot down abit because there a tight gap, and it tries to drive up the pavement as the inside wheel loses grip. I dont like the car driving me. Within ten mins in city traffic I already despise it. How can you not feel this?

but

Yes... Understeering wheelspinning, going wide into oncoming traffic as it understeers on a wet / slippery bit of road etc. Charming! Thats the kind of fun I can do without.

4 would be "better still" for the road but it also increases complexity, cost, and reduces mpg. But for ultimate grip under power for acceleration rear wheel is still better.

I can feel it, it's one of the reasons I'm not hugely fond of FWD cars though. Having said that, on a fast and twisting A road I'd not bet on whether I'd be faster in, for example, a Focus 1.8 than a BMW 318.. I'd probably have equal amounts of fun in both, but I'll always prefer RWD.

RWD is better for ultimate acceleration - wouldn't say it was better for ultimate grip though,

As for MPG, the Rangies are currently drinking £50 a week - each...

I didnt say I couldnt feel it.

All you're doing is exagerating the situation. My Swift GTi was bad for torque steer, but I was never in a situation where I was out of control. All the 205s were pretty neutral in terms of torque steer, and although I didnt have the most powerful versions, the TD certainly had a fair bit of grunt in it. If you got any understeer you could always lift off and it would tuck itself back in (or have a bit of a slide) or yank the handbrake. Muchos fun!

But equally, with RWD you'd be clouting them with your back end. You drive to suit the conditions, doesnt matter what car you're in.

But surely if you're at the point where the rear wheels start to spin under power any power to the front wheels is also gonna help to pull you away.

I did a grass autotest last year in an XR4x4. Obviously you have a lot less grip so its easier to seethe handling traits of a car. Off the line the FWDs obviously struggled, the RWD cars were better, the RWD mid engine car was better still, but everything was wiped out by my XR4x4 and the TT Quattro that were playing. The quickest time was eventually set in my car (not by me though). I also did the best dohnuts :)

I thought you could drive like, well?

As opposed to the standard FWD set up of rigid rear axles on coil springs?

Makes f*ck all difference to me, and two of my cars have /two/ rigid axles.

Old doesn't mean shit, in the same way modern doesn't mean good.

That'll be the the stuff I like then. FWD "upper management" spec cars all blow goats hugely for quick a/b road work.

and other than the Mk2 Lotus Elan I can't think of a single decent FWD one.

Think of the BTCC for a second. 4wd and RWD cars have a weight penalty imposed on them - because they're faster.

Ford even made a RWD Mondeo touring car because it'd be a lot faster than the FWD one.

The PR people put a stop to it because Ford were busy convincing people like yourself that a cheap and nasty FWD set up is better than a proper but expensive RWD setup. They were wrong, but they've managed to convince enough muppets that FWD is ok. Strange the way that most people who like FWD stuff don't appear to have experienced RWD much.

Makes no difference to me, I don't own anything FWD.

No I am not exagerating. Its there all the time and its very agravating!

My Swift GTi was bad for

Strange! I always get out of control a little sooner or later in every car I owned. How can you find and understand a cars handling and limits unless you exeed them once or twice???

My mum had the smallest petrol one. It was awful! Like driving a whitches broomstick. Horrible thing with all the gear ratios too far apart and simply horrible feeling steering.

If you got any understeer you could always lift off and it

No. It MAY tuck back in but engine braking also takes part of the possible lateral grip away. But usually this works in an non exacting somewhat dodgy way. But it feels awful and its slower than just letting the rear end hang a few degrees out in a proper car. And less predictable. Although for grannies etc it can be easier to control.

(or have a bit of a slide) or yank the handbrake.

Yanking hand brages is just a horible feeling as a way to try and properly steer a car. It slows it down and looks like a kid in a car park.

But the front where you sit can still be steered. You choose where to go, and its far more controlable. I actually like sliding the rear end all over, and practised this since I was seventeen on tracks, airfields, roads, grass fields etc (several laps of my local roundabouts every time the road was deserted!) motorway sliproads even now.

3 secs to 3000 mph plus all rear drive. Everything thats fast on a drag strip is rear drive. Why waste power in transmissions when the c of g can put all the power through the rear wheels due to weight transfer.

Obviously on grass or wet roads with road cars 4x4 is better as rear drive does not get the acc / weight transfer / grip etc.

I can thats not driving thats bad handling.

Mr bad work man would you also like to comment on your tools?

Who said we can't feel it, it's just not a big problem unless you are bigoted about it. You are making it a problem if you would learn to drive it rather than gong off in a huff then you would find that it can be just as much fun as RWD. Currently on my drive I have 2 RWD cars and 2 FWD cars, I can have masses of fun in both types the fact you can't suggests that it's you that's lacking here and you just can't admit it.

My tool is fine. and I only have one!

I think we're all in agreement RWD from a driving perspective is better, and

4wd is probably better still. But the point I was making was that a properly set up FWD isn't as bad as Burgerman is making out, and as you say, there is sod all in it speed wise (the Focus/316 example).

I have owned and thrashed both on roads and tracks dozens of front drive cars since 1977. Including today. They are easy to drive, just jerkier, slower, less satisfying.

Title of thread torque steer? FWD does. RWD doesent. I just mentioned they had a lot of other rather obvious shortcomings too.

Aha, now we get to the source of the problem; bad driving.