Toyota Tundra: First Impression

Thanks for the kind reply, dad. I have not been able to find the figures.

I really appreciate the way you share your information with others.

How did you get internet access above ground?

Jeff

Of course not. The "needs" of a car collector are different. If Ed's "SO" buys ONE car and keeps it for a good long time and replaces it with ONE car, that's hardly the behavior of a collector.

As in, don't be a jerk.

"Put up or shut up" is a concept alien to "mike hunt." The only list was in his head, anyway.

I am not going to argue you points.

I would like to see the actual lists, though. Not that I don't believe Mike (aka, "dad"), but, rather, I am curious about how all the cars and trucks did.

Jeff

Different people have different ideas of groups -

is a decent article

I gleaned the following "tops" for 2006 -

Top selling pickup - Ford F150 (also top selling vehicle) Top Selling Passenger Car - Toyota Camry Top Selling SUV - Ford Explorer Top Selling Mini-van - Dodge Caravan

You could break it down into top selling luxury car, luxury SUV, small car, etc...but that list would depend on who was doing the defining.

Ed

I can't find info on a model-by-model basis for Toyota but if you go to the GM site,

and click on "gm news", their latest sales report should be right there and it is broken out fairly nicely (although all their full-size trucks are lumped in one category for each of GMC and Chevrolet).

Ford, I think, was about equally easy to find.

Toyota is

and point to the "about toyota" tab, then "about toyota" again and then check news (I hate those interactive menu-lets) and then check press releases, I think you'll find the most recent summary fairly easily. It's just a summary, though, that hits highlights. I've seen model-by-model figures somewhere but failed to bookmark it.

To get this stuff readily, I think one must subscribe to an industry news source (for $$). It would be something of a nuisance to piece this together from mfr's individual reports.

From: "dh" Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Toyota Tundra: First Impression

wrote in

True. Like me, she doesn't want a used car, even a used Toyota. As I said before, ressale value is irrelevant.

According to CARS.COM, a 2004 RAV4 Front Wheel Drive Manual Transmission Base Model had a list price of $18,450 (manual windows, no A/C). My SO just bought a 2007 Automatic with A/C, power windows, power locks, upgrade stero and park pilot etc, for 22K (Base price with an automatic is $20,950). I don't see much difference in the price. In fact compared to the 2004, the 2007 appears to be a bargin.

I was quoting KBB numbers for similarly equipped vehicle with similar mileage. "Asking" prices are not "getting" prices, but you probably know that. Anybody that is asking 14K for a RAV4 that is more than 3 years old is living in fantasy land. Anyone who pays that much is not too bright. I am confident I could buy a new 4 cylinder Escape for less than $17K. No matter now great you think a RAV4 is, there is no way a 4 year old RAV4 is better than a new Escape. Only a true Toyota drone would be that silly.

I did an Autotrader search on 2004 RAV4s and 2004 Escapes. There was only one 2004 RAV4 listed in my area, the asking price was $18988. There were 23 2004 Escapes listed with asking prices from 12,950 to

19,900. Cars.com also only had one RAV4 listed in my area (a different one) and the asking price for it was $18480. Cars.Com listed 12 2004 Escapes with asking prices ranging from $11,995 to $18,995. The local CARMAX didn't have a 2004 RAV4. They did have three 2004 Escapes - $14,988 to $16,998. I did an extended CARMAX search and found there were six 2WD 2004 RAV4s in their network, prices ranged from $15998 to $18599.

I can't see where there is as great a variation in "asking" prices as you indicated (at least for a three year old model). Not sure about "selling" prices. Edmunds.com give a 2004 RAV4 a True Market Value Private Party price of $12,986. The similar TMV for a base 2004 Escape is $12,274. Again not much difference.

If you want to check my numbers, use zip code 27609 and a 50 mile radius.

I can't imagine what sort of need would casue my SO to change away from a RAV4 or Escape. It is not like she bought a Corvette and suddenly had three kids.

This is where you have to go with what has works for you -

My younger Sister has a 2001 Escape. Total repairs to date - $13.

My Mother and Father owned nothing but Ford products since 1957. In the last 25 years, I think the total amount they paid on repairs would be less than $700 and I think most of that would be mufflers on pick- up trucks. Other than two or three muflers, the only repairs that come to mind were a power seat on a Grand Marquis (a 7 year old Greand Marquis and only after my Mother jamed it with an umbrella), and a water pump on a 1992 Ranger. I have not been quite as lucky with my Fords, since 1996, I actually had to buy a coil pack, a multifunction switch, and an alternator (of coruse the Cressida I owned needed three alternators, a starter, an AC condensor, three relays, a power window switch, and the transmission was acting up when we dumped it). Now my SO admittedly drove her old Camry many miles, but after I met her and before she finally sold the car (around 4 years) she had to have major engine and transmssion work (hundreds of dollars), multiple mufflers, a drive shaft, and an alternator. So based on the experiences of thoseclosest to me, I'd rate Fords far more reliable than Toyotas. This certainly doesn't prove anything, but then neither do individuals who have had good luck with Toyotas.

BTW consumers at Edmunds did give the 2004 RAV4 a slightly higher rating than the 2004 Escape (9.5 vs 8.9). If you look at the 2004 Escape at Consumer Reports, all areas were average to much better than average, with an overall better than average rating. The RAV4 did get a much better than average rating. Consumer Reports estimated the retail price of a 2004 RAV4 as $14200 to $18200. They estimated the retail price of a 2004 Escape as $9800 to $16100.

Ed

And then there's the reality price. Dealers were a little more aggressive in selling Ravs in 2004 and prices are firmer, now (the V6 is a hot seller). Will CARS.COM list incentives from 2004?

Yes. However, the asking price is a suggestion of confidence on the part of the seller and if it's too far out of whack with reality, no one will be interested in calling and working out the "real" price.

Edmunds is showing a lot more "daylight" between their prices. $3K on trade-in for the '01, for example. The large gap between asking prices on the web suggests I should put more faith in Edmunds.

You may well be right, which is one of the reasons the Escape was on my short list this summer. My spouse would not even entertain the idea of another Ford in the driveway, however.

Well, I didn't pay $14K for a 4-year old Rav. However, the Edmunds trade-in on what I did buy this summer is now higher than what I paid (including the extra 7K miles on it since I bought it). I wouldn't call it a trend... but I was lucky.

Maybe some of this is regional differences. I wonder if I should travel to

27609 the next time I want a Toyota?

Your SO is just one instance of "people." Needs DO change. If she can guarantee her car needs won't change, that's great. However, for the rest of us, life is uncertain, even to what we expect to drive next year. Resale value matters even if you don't plan to resell.

The Escape is one of Ford's best rated (for reliability) products, isn't it?

With that background, you're going to get something from your Ford purchase that I wouldn't: confidence. What's the value of that? And confidence is reflected in market pricing. You're lucky to be getting confidence at a bargain. I have to pay for it.

Now, if I'd had that kind of luck with Ford, we'd be driving an Escape Hybrid today (hey, props to Ford for delivering a real hybrid while GM dithers and I would have liked to get a real hybrid at a bargain price). If my brother had that kind of luck with Fords, he wouldn't be driving VAGs today because of transmission failures in both his Windstar (company car - dodged a bullet) and his Taurus (no such luck, he paid for the repair). My b-i-l wouldn't be driving a Sienna and a Corolla. My in-laws were a solid Ford family as recently as 15 years ago. They are ALL driving imports, now, except one b-i-l, who's unhappy and planning to change (when last seen, he was openly admiring Asian imports).

I've driven one Ford product in the last few years, my f-i-l's late-model but just-out-of-warranty plus-size SUV. I drove it less than 5 miles but imagine my joy to be at the controls when the brakes failed. Those buggers don't stop real well on just the e-brake and downshifting.

If everybody had the experience you've had, CR would notice this, JDPower would notice this, Edmunds would notice this and Ford resale values would be high and Fords would sell at or near MSRP with no givebacks.

The market is, collectively, not particularly stupid.

The narrower difference at the top end might be due to more luxurious optioning available on the Escape (the Rav might have been available with leather but in it's best trim it did not try to be a luxury car) or the V6 option (not available in the Rav4 in '04). The low end is probably a better comparison.

And, when doing price comparisons, it's useful to remember that, even today,

40% of consumers in the US WILL NOT CONSIDER an import. That's Detroit's base and they help prop up Detroiter prices and hold the line on import prices.

Does that mean you realize Fords can and do last a long time and can and do go up rather than down in value? ;)

mike

Don't forget that Toyota designed the hybrid components in the Escape (they are similar to the ones in the Prius). They get some of hte props, too.

Jeff

I don't bookmark every site I visit, but from memory from Commerce Dept for

2006

Small car Civic Mid sedan Camry Hybrid Pruis Small SUV Escape Mid SUV Explorer Luxury SUV Escalade. Small luxury Acura Small truck Dakota Full truck F150 Small Min Van Caravan Large Van Ford 'Econoline

If you need more, do a search

mike

The most accurate site to find at what price vehicles are actually being trading then selling at retail, in the real world, search nadaguides.com

If you want to see what retailer are actually making in the used car market, see manheimauctions.com Then compare that wholesale price with what you find at retail at nadaguides.com. That will give one a better idea of how Toyota dealers are screwing their customers on trades ;)

mike

Sure. If you want to buy one of today's Fords and put it carefully away in storage for a while, it will probably have considerable value as an antique in 12,007AD.

The judgement of the market, though, is that if you also put a Toyota carefullly away in storage and bring it out at the same time as that Ford, that the Toyota is more likely to start and run, which is part of the reason that they sell for better prices than Fords and probably will in 12,007AD, too.

Somewhere in between here and 12,007AD, they will both bottom out in value, of course, with the Toyota not bottoming out quite as hard.

So, don't be a jerk. The collector market has little in common with the transportation market and needs. A friend has a late 40's Buick. He keeps a drip pan under it at all times and would not consider driving it 20 miles to work under any cirumstances; he has a Honda for actual transportation.

Why people trust their dealers on the trade-ins is beyound me. Basically, there are three different transactiosn when buying a new car: 1) Buying the car. 2) Selling a car (the trade-in). 3) Financing. I would think that a lot of people can go to their bank and get financing. They can also get financing from other sources (if I wanted to buy a new or used car, I can get a loan from my credit union for 6.25%). If your dealer can get you a better loan rate (and there are no hidden fees), then you go with the lower rate. As for selling the car, you can sell a car yourself, usually for more money. And, at least go into the the dealer with the information about what your car is worth. It's available online fron NADA, edmonds and kbb (kelly blue book). At least you would have an idea of whether or not the dealer is making a reasonable offer. Plus, if you don't get offered what you want for it, well, you can get up walk out. There are other dealers around.

The advice I have always heard is to keep the three seperate. Make sense to me. And arm yourself with information. I dealer will be happy to let you think you are getting a great deal on the car when he makes a lot more money on the trade in and his cut of insurance.

Jeff

Most of "Toyota's" hybrid technology was aquired by buying Aisin- Warner. It is interesting, if you go to the Aisin-Warner's web site, they freeely admit to selling hybrid components to Ford. They never mention that they also sell them to Toyota. Toyota seems to enjoy projecting the image that they developed the technology internally instead of buying up the company that actually developed the technology.

Ed

And GM does not seem to enjoy remembering they decided there was no market and should not build them. Bob Lutz, their "Car Czar" recently said, "it turns out that it's an advantage in the auto industry to be seen as a technological leader."

Hmph. Imagine that. I never would have guessed...

However, GM has regained technological leadership with an exciting concept car, the Chevy Volt, which they can not build because they do not have the batteries. But it looks cool at auto shows, so they're the leader again. [snicker]

I'll say this for GM, though: if they get the battery and build it, the Volt concept is unique in that there's no mechanical drivetrain from engine to wheels, which makes the vehicle simpler, lighter, more efficient and, perhaps, makes it easier to package the components for the real world. No differential, no transmission, traction control becomes a matter of directly varying electric power to each wheel motor. The engine runs at optimum speed whenever it runs. I wonder if they'll purpose-build an egine for it with, say, Atkinson cycle and maybe the flywheel replaced by the power generator assembly, which doubles as starter motor and no alternator, fully electric support (electric water pump, which runs at optimum speed only as necessary), no belts, etc. They *could* edge ahead of Toyota a bit with it. We'll see.

This is a good concept. However, it is a concept that has been in use since the fifties. I often take advantage of it when I go into New York City.

It should be noted that locomotives don't store the energy in batteries, which makes the Volt different.

I doubt they would go all electric (water pump, valve train), etc., at first. Later, perhaps. The Prius and Escape use Aktinson cycle enginess.

Jeff

The Toyota's ownership in Aisin goes back way before they even came to the U.S. From my "insiders" experience, I'd say that Toyota developed the technology and had Aisin produce it, which is how Toyota usually works.

all car buyers should read "the insider" first.no other book like it in the world. see