(ot) FAO ADSL users.

Just a mini rant and some questions for you all...

**The Background**

I work for PlusNet the internet service provider

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and recently we are having some publicity problems on Usenet and several forums.

Basicaly we where having network capacity issues that where costing us a fortune in BT central pipes. We investigated and it turned out that..

0.3% of our users where using 10% of our total available bandwidth. (approx 250 users out of 80k+)

We sent out an e-mail asking users to reduce their usage as it was effecting the entire userbase. They had 14 days in which to do so or we would move them onto a managed connection.

Basically we would not impliment a cap but simply move these users onto a single pipe with each other so thier usage habit would stop effecting the rest of the network.

We have since acitoned this and, as you can imagine, it is not going down too well.

Now my questions to you:

How many of you are on an "unlimited" ADSL connection?

What is you actual usage (if known)?

Do you expect your connection to remain totally unlimited?

What would you do if it wasnt?

Would you complain if your ISP implimented something similar?

Simply put some customers where downoading in excess of 600GB per month! These customers pay us between 30 and 60 ponds per month but are costing us upto £700 per month each....while this wasnt the primary reason it was certainly taken into consideration.

So then what is your views on all this?

I'm taking you as "the public" for this excercise.

It's amazing how much noise 250 people (and some random trolls) can make on usenet/forums and part of my job here is to monitor and respond on both...

Your reactions please.

Mason

Reply to
Mason
Loading thread data ...

LONG POST!!

The following is our announcement earlier on today regarding the changes.

Bear in mind (if you dont know) than PlusNet policy to be open,honest and make anything available to out customers, all out server and bandwidth graphs are on the website even webcams here in the office!

**********************

There has been some speculation surrounding PlusNet's management of its broadband network and its response to customers utilising the service significantly beyond its design. The following information is provided to bring clarity to the situation.

It is important to understand that the wholesale cost for Broadband is made up of £8.40 (ex VAT) per month per customer for the local loop component and £31,130 (ex VAT) per month per 155Mb segment of a 622Mb central pipe (BT broadband network transit). Depending on customer mix and product mix, typically between 4000 and 10000 customers may be serviced per segment. The resulting costs per customer are common to all ISPs.

In order to frame the discussion further, industry average for Broadband utilisation is circa 7GB per month per customer, across all speeds, ISPs and account types.

PlusNet, Pipex, Zen, Nildram, Eclipse etc. all have to offer a better all round service than BT, Wanadoo, AOL and Tiscali and in most cases are also offered at a lower price. When looking at PlusNet's products specifically, Broadband Home Premier 512k at £21.99 (inc VAT) is a fixed cost service without a data transfer cap and with a contention ratio of 50:1 (up to 50 users sharing 1 unit of capacity).

It is worth bearing in mind that, due to the nature of variable usage across a customer base, there is always going to be scope for bursts of utilisation by individual customers in any given month. The issue is when users consistently use significantly greater resource than the product can support.

Considering all of the information above, we have budgeted for the average usage on Home Premier 512k to be up to 10GB per month. This budget is based on the current wholesale structure and pricing. However, there are many legitimate activities which can push people to using more than this per month, and so we have taken that into account in building the overall platform capacity.

It becomes very clear, if you put all the information together, that no ISP can sell sustainable Broadband for less than £30 inc. VAT per month and support users that continuously use in excess of 50GB per month in the current wholesale environment. By the end of 2005 every ISP will either be leveraging LLU, DataStream, UBC or CBC to provide Broadband services. Indeed, over the last 2 years, a number of ISPs have already started to deal with customers who have unsustainable usage, some covertly but others not so, including Wanadoo and Virgin.

Having established that specific customers were using the service significantly beyond its design, we identified that this issue was threatening the sustainability of the service for all customers. Specifically we have established a model that delivers an above average service for a below average price. However, this model cannot reasonably support customers consistently using an average of 50 times the service design.

At this point we looked at what other providers were doing in relation to this issue. We didn't feel that the approaches already taken were appropriate for our customers. They either went against our open and honest policy when interacting with customers, or did not enable an above average service to be delivered at a below average price for all customers.

We engaged the PlusNet UserGroup

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todiscuss potential methods of managing the very small percentage ofusers undermining the quality of service available to the rest of thecustomers at the price point being offered. Following thisconsultation, actions were decided and taken. The intent was to ensurethe fixed cost Unmetered Broadband proposition was maintained. Theintent was also to avoid the implementation of data transfer caps,which would affect all of our customers. The action taken was also designed to make other customers with usage patterns closest to the 0.3% (who may not have been directly impacted by the current process) also consider their usage levels.

The specific action was to request that 0.3% of all broadband customers moderated their usage. Their level of usage was inordinately high, resulting in an impact on the quality of service for all. This 0.3% of customers were using approximately 10% of the available platform. This equated to data transfer levels that were consistently between 140GB per month and

600GB per month.

The objective of this exercise was to protect 99.7% of the customer base from adverse effects resulting from the usage of the 0.3%. Natural outcomes of this exercise were identified as:

a) A voluntary change in usage by the 0.3% of customers b) Implementation of a solution to manage the overall capacity available to these customers c) Customers who didn't accept either a) or b) moving to another provider

As a result of yesterday's implementation, 8% of our total capacity has already been freed up for the majority of our customers and a performance improvement has been experienced by nearly all of our customers as a result. 0.2% of customers were initially given 2% of our overall capacity. Given the usage patterns of these customers, it follows that their own broadband experience is being impacted by each other's usage. For the first time this usage has not impacted the vast majority of customers.

We are committed to providing a high quality of service at a great price, and we will always take steps, to maintain this for our entire customer base. We hope that the measures that are currently in place will be successful; however there are a number of further options available which can be explored. These could include:

  • Reduction in per-customer performance when individual usage goes beyond a certain level e.g. 100GB for a 512k service
  • The introduction of charges for usage beyond a certain level e.g.
100GB for a 512k service

Any such additional measures would only be aimed at consistent unsustainable usage patterns, and would be undertaken following consultation & communication with our customers.

As a result of feedback received we are now looking to implement flexibility on the managed platform to facilitate access to the full potential of the network in non busy periods

While not everyone was going to be entirely happy with the events of the past few weeks as there was never going to be a magic solution for this problem. We have taken an approach that benefits the vast majority of our customers, short and long term.

Regards,

PlusNet Customer Support

Reply to
Mason

we are having some

fortune in BT central

250 users out of 80k+)

the entire userbase.

single pipe with each

i am

dunno quite a heavy user i'd say though

yes

find one that was or kick them in the nuts

probably yes and probably switch

customers pay us

each....while this wasnt

that's a stupid amount to download in a month!

i think heavy usage should be no more than say 60gig a month as any more has got to be dodgy! or maybe it's a shared network connection

oooo

usenet/forums and part

eh well fair enough

see above :)

hello mason :)

oh that last one wasn't a question hehe

Reply to
Vamp

I am.

Aug-Sept 9.71G Sept-Oct 1.78G Oct-Nov 12.36G I don't consider myself to be a heavy user, most of that is pr0n and silly car videos. It averages out at maybe 6 or 7 gigs a month but can vary a lot.

Not if what I read on forums frequented by members of my ISPs support team are to be believed. (c:

I'd consider my position on useage, what my ISP was going to end up charging me and if I could get a better deal elsewhere I'd f*ck off. Price isn't my only consideration however.

Alright I'll come clean, I'm a Plus Net Customer. FWIW, it hasn't made a discernable difference to me, and unless you get pretty arsey about limits and charging for over and above some sort of cap I'll keep paying my subscription.

Sounds like you had users taking the piss to me. If it was me in charge I'd tell them to calm down or f*ck off.

FWIW I've nothing bad to say about Plus Net apart from some bizarre service outages (usually documented on your website) and an irritating unreliability of transfer by FTP to my included webspace. Since I signed up I've found you cheap, helpful and transparent as an organisation and thats good as far as I'm concerned.

If the usage of a minority of users was to impact the rest seriously to the point where I noticed I'd happily leave. So you'd still be paying £650/month for some bugger to use your service and you'd lose me who's paying £22 and perhaps roughly breaking even.

Gosh, thanks

Opinion on Usenet? Not worth the paper its written on. (c;

Douglas

Reply to
Douglas Payne

Yes.

I reckon about 40-60GB a month

Yes that is what I'm paying for.

Change to an ISP that was, and if anyone tried to change my contract they would lose my business.

Damned right, and be a very vocal trouble maker about it too.

Can you really squeeze that much down a 512k connection a month?

600GB a month is incredible, and Over the top. I'm almost constanley downloading something, but usually at fairly low speeds.

Who are you on ADSLguide and ISPreview, and uk.telecom.broadband then?

Reply to
Sleeker GT Phwoar

Being honest, it's not just *recently* is it? Plusnet have dug this hole for themselves in the past as well, offering "unlimited" connections then slapping a cap on those connections on the grounds that users were "taking the piss".

It's a problem of your own making, if you advertise something as unlimited then it's reasonable for a customer to assume that you mean it. Indeed it's reasonable for a court to decide that you mean it should a customer decide to hold you to the contract or for Trading Standards to get interested in your actions.

I don't have much sympathy with PlusNet on this. If you had been more honest up front then you would have a leg to stand on.

And no, I'm not one of the people you refer to nor am I agitating against PlusNet. But I think it's a bit rich for you to offer a service then to say after the event that you never really had any intention of providing it as advertised.

Reply to
Steve Firth

slightly OT

but do the cable companies have a similar problem having to pay for capacity (ie outside their own network)

i'm on ntl cable and have to admit to hitting some pretty high monthly totals well over 500 gigs some months

Reply to
Rob

500gig a month? How do you do that without falling fowl of the 1Gb a day cap in the AUP?
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speed are you on?
Reply to
Depresion

Hello,

In direct reply to the topic of your postings - Please refer to the Acceptable User Policy of PlusNet concerning your off-topic postings. They have nothing to do with car modifications which is the group you're currently posting your off-topic messages and advertising to. I am sure PlusNet would not appreciate you discussing their "problems" in a forum for all to see, and doubt you have permission from the company to do so, or permission to speak on behalf of PlusNet as an employee. If you have something to say about cars then great, if not, can you find a more suitable newsgroup please?

Reply to
GT

Not surprising plusnet are reneging on there agreement.

Unfortunatly ADSL hasn't been rolled out here yet just Cabel.

20-40Gb a month.

Unless there's a corresponding (read substantial) cut in price it had better.

Change ISP's possibly contact trading standards depending on how the change was implemented.

You better believe I would, in public.

Reply to
Depresion

I am. 512MB link. Do about 40GB a month. I'm not happy unless I am downloading 50k a second.

Fraser

Reply to
Fraser Johnston

Who cares - as you say, it's only 250 users out of your 80K total. Either get rid of them totally, or make their connection so useless that they go elsewhere (but obviously don't tell them you're doing this :)

If those 250 customers are causing problems for your other 80K, then they need to be gone.

No such thing - any ISP will take action if you're hogging the network to excess.

Newsguy give me 30GB per month, and Easynews give me 10GB - I tend to use all of that. Let's say 10Gb or so of none-newsgroup downloads too, giving a total of between 40GB and 60GB a month ?

As I say, I rekon I pull less than 60GB a month. As long as my ISP set their cap to >60GB per month, then it'd be fine.

HOWEVER, I wouldn't expect to be penalised for the odd breach - only for continually going over the limit. If I pulled 80GB one month as a one-off, and the cap was 60GB, then I wouldn't expect any action to be taken.

Fuck em ! Bandwidth-hogs are a real problem - get them off your userbase, and send them somewhere else. OR, charge them appropriately at cost.

Plusnet are a fine ISP - carry on with what you're doing !

Reply to
Nom

I am a usenet user. His off-topic postings are perfectly acceptable.

So ?

Did you miss the letters "ot" in his subject ?

If you're so against OT posting, then you'd be filtering them out !

I fail to see how that's *any* of your business ?!?!?!?

Er, this isn't a dictatorship - he can do what he likes.

Even more so when the group's regulars (like, er, me !) don't mind.

But when some random lurker (like, er, you !) turns up to complain about an off-topic post, then I'm afraid you're taking the piss.

Please take your lack of tolerance elsewhere !

Reply to
Nom

Wot he said, really.

Am I the only one who was mildly amused to see such a rant come from a top-poster?

Reply to
SteveH

Ah the memories...

Why not just terminate their accounts like you did with the Unlimited dialup a few years back (I was culled in that and it was quite bad for PR then too - and against your own T&C's)

me. 1mbit.. going to 2mbit in a few days... sold as unlimited, and with a long established major player. Not some little office in Sheffield.

More than I care to mention, and surprisingly - all for personal usage (well me and the family).

Seeing as it is sold as unlimited - it should. CBC will prolly change things a little, we shall see.

Change ISP as they are in clear breach of the T&C. If I was to be charged for cancellation I would take sue.

Yes.

That is quite an amazing feat. I manage nearly 300gb/month, I suspect I will be able to get more on 2mbit - but not THAT much more.

The users that pay you 30-60 pounds/month who hardly use the connection (costing you pennies...) - who is ensuring they get a fair deal ?

See above.

Plusnet has undertaken a massive landgrab exercise.. and this was bound to happen. You were relying upon the supposed wonderful usenet feed to bring in loads of users via word of mouth and now you are hitting the inevitable problems. Well done.

The exact same PR nightmares as a few years ago, despite assurances that there would be no repeat of that.. ever.

Sorry, but ho-ho-ho.

:-/

Sorry if these comments seem very negative towards you personally. They are not directed towards you personally - just Plusnet.

------------------------------------------------ "We are all individuals" "I'm not!"

Reply to
Carl Smith

Reading this thread, I found it really interesting to see the diversity of opinion.

People who download 600 GIG!!!!!!!!! per month

a) are taking the piss b) really, really, need to get out more

I'd also like to know where all that 600 gig per month goes? My hard drive only holds 40GB and my techno freak friend has "only" 1000 GB - which would be dispatched off easily in a couple of months at that rate of downloading!

Reply to
fishman

Reading this thread, I found it really interesting to see the diversity of opinion.

People who download 600 GIG!!!!!!!!! per month

a) are taking the piss b) really, really, need to get out more

I'd also like to know where all that 600 gig per month goes? My hard drive only holds 40GB and my techno freak friend has "only" 1000 GB - which would be dispatched off easily in a couple of months at that rate of downloading!

Reply to
fishman

Don't market a 2MB adsl service as unlimited, charge extra for the unlimited priveledge then whine and break contract when you attract users prepared to utilize it as such. Also try not to block your users access to forums where they might have something less than complementary to say (adsl guide). It's a self inflicted injury. What's also amusing is that the drastic action has, at a glance, had next to no effect on the systems bandwidth usage. When will the new 0.3% of heavy users be given the same treatment. Then the next

0.3%.... etc.
Reply to
Johnny

For two solid days of 512k usage, I make that 8.4375GB over the two days.

My view is that it's a tricky one.

Companies rely on the majority of their customers to use nowhere near the full potential of the connection as per the service that's described (i.e. if it says unlimited then they should be able to download to the full capacity all the time if the server they're connecting to has the available bandwidth) - i.e. 512kbit/s constantly 24/7, 365 days a year. That works out as 1539.8GB per year, or 128GB / month.

I dunno where this 600GB/month figure comes from - by my calculations even on a 2MBit/second link that wouldn't be quite possible. Unless ADSL works on 8 bits per byte instead of 10 (AIUI modems used to have a start bit and a stop bit for each byte transmitted - is this done away with on digital comms systems?), in which case it'd work out as 640GB/month.

Is 2MB/sec the fastest service you guys offer?

But anyway, I digress - basically my view is that surely by trade descriptions etc., if a company offers an "unlimited" service, then that's what they should provide - a service without limits. Meaning if someone wants to be constantly downloaded illegally pirated movies and music 24/7, then they should have the right to :-). IMHO if the wholesale rate for bandwidth is such that this isn't possible, then they should be asking questions if they're in the right business or not.

Now obviously acceptable use policies come in to play, and at the end of the day these companies have to run at a profit, so they have to compromise and make do with relying on the fact that most customers won't be using anywhere near the full available bandwidth, but at the end of the day anyone opting for an unlimited service as opposed to a capped one is likely to want to use it quite a bit, so I'd have thought it'd be common sense to allow a lot more than they do when figuring out prices and profit margins etc.

Just my tuppence worth.......

Peter

-- "In the Northern town of Houghton-le-Spring it is illegal to throw souffle at guinea pigs on the 3rd Sunday of the month."

Reply to
AstraVanMan

Who's sue? Is that the missus, who can really kick up a stink?

Yup, if there are 8 bits to a byte (i.e. if they've done away with start and stop bits for digital comms) then the max for an average month (i.e. 365 days / 12) works out at around 640GB. With 10 bits/byte I make it around

513GB/month.

At the end of the day it's their choice to pay that much for something they don't use all that much. They have the choice to find a capped connection at a cheaper rate - if they can't find one and that's the best deal for them, and they're happy enough to pay, then as far as they're concerned they're getting a fair deal.

Peter

-- "The humble bic biro draws 13 beards, 9 devil moustaches and 49 penises on newspapers in it's lifetime."

Reply to
AstraVanMan

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